If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

Beyond the laws, which are insane, I just cannot get behind a. female/male brains when science says there is no such thing and b. that if you put on some lipstick and a dress and say you feel like a woman, that makes you a woman.

I do not believe in gender. If men want to wear lipstick or dresses or skip around and speak in a princess voice, I'm all for it. If women want to wear dungarees and never shave and become builders, I'm all for that too. But I will not pretend that any of those activities somehow belong to one or the other sex. I think so much of this is coming from men who want to express a different side to themselves and they feel unable to because of our society's obsession with masculine and feminine behaviours.

If that's transphobic, then I'm transphobic.

Mumsnet is a massively moderated censored site

Really? From what I've seen they basically let you get on with it.Unless you blatantly trollhunt people, and don't personally attack.
All viewpoints allowed.

I have difficulty recognising faces, and have also had difficulty recognising the sex of some people. There is a high incidence of autism in our family. There may be a connection.

Hmm, just read that report about the woman with the garrote; punched a window out & ran away, police needed reinforcements to restrain her & she kicked the police car window out on the way to the station.
chinny reckon>

Jimmy Hill!

Denying that male violence is a problem doesn't make it go away, or stop being a problem.

So yeah, attempted derail # 56457567567567 a failure, just like all the other attempts to stop us talking about the problem before.

Well yes, shut up with your unhelpful arguments. You sound like India Willoughby.
www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/7ve5io/karen_ingala_smith_counting_dead_women_debates/

Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.
Really? Or is that your highly personal view, based solely on a sort of feeling you have....?
Its not a feeling. There is data. Some of it estimated. Not registering birth never mind birth sex in many countries makes it hard to count. But lets just sneer eh?
No one is denying that there is violence in the world, or that some of it is directed at women, but just making up statements and stating them as fact (that male violence is the biggest human rights crisis) isn't helpful to your argument, surely you see that?

PencilsInSpace

What the first paragraph I posted means is for the second time in this thread DoctorW has been shown to be misrepresenting the situation. The paragraph you posted does not change that as its still subject to risk assessments and safeguarding.

@MyFavouriteChameleon

Its not a feeling. There is data. Some of it estimated. Not registering birth never mind birth sex in many countries makes it hard to count. But lets just sneer eh? Bill and Melinda Gates are spending their money on registering girls. More sneering about that? You can't beat a good sneer at violence can you?

An estimated 120 million girls globally have experienced rape or sexual violence. For most girls, this happens between the ages of 15 and 19, but it is also reported by girls much younger.

plan-international.org/ending-violence/gender-based-violence

twitter.com/ZewoHewo/status/972956065783472128

Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.
Really? Or is that your highly personal view, based solely on a sort of feeling you have....?

What it means is the bar is very low. What it means is that there are rapists in women's prisons. This is not OK.

PencilsInSpace

What the paragraph means though is that they have to be transferred to the female prison population and as such they have the risk assessments and accommodations based on that.

But that means they could still be housed in a male prison the same as any other female prisoner if the female accommodation does not have the facilities for protection of both them and other inmates. However this would happen as a female inmate in accordance with PSO 4800 rather than just leaving them in or putting them there as a male with the male inmates.

The GRC means they are entitled to be treated as a female not that they are entitled to be in with the other female prisoners. They are just eligible for that, subject to the risk assessment the same as everyone else.

Its nothing like just filling out a form and HMPS hands are tied.

Like cis, I refuse to recognise the term transphobic anymore because it is another incorrect and meaningless term (being gender critical and worried about men trying to dominate women isnt the same as having a phobia) and, as others have said, its used to opress and shutdown debate.

'phobic'..'phobia' - these words are just used to shut down debate.

And from the paragraph directly above the one you quoted:

In a judicial review of September 2009 (R (on the application of AB) v Secretary of State for Justice [2009] EWHC 2220 (Admin)) the judge held that a male to female transsexual prisoner with a GRC had to be transferred to the female estate even though one of her index offences was attempted rape of a woman.

So fuck this shit.

A male prisoner with a GRC is legally female so they will be automatically eligible for transfer to women's estate because they must be treated for all purposes as female under the Gender recognition Act 2004.

That does not prevent them or any other female prisoner being placed in the male estate if the risk profile to other prisoners makes such a transfer justified.

They are indeed treated as any other female prisoner but that also includes the possibility of being held in the male estate in accordance with PSO4800

So whilst they are automatically eligible for transfer they are NOT entitled to be automatically transferred.

There is a significant difference between eligible and entitled

PSI-17-2016-PI-16-2016-AI-13-2016-The-Care-and-Management-of-Transgender-Offenders.docx
There may be exceptional cases where it is necessary to refuse a transfer to the female estate for a transgender (male to female) prisoner with a GRC. This can only happen if the risk concerns surrounding the prisoner are sufficiently high that other women with an equivalent security profile would also be held in the male estate. If a transfer is refused, the prisoner will be a female prisoner in the male estate. She must be held separately and according to a female prisoner regime as set out in PSO 4800. This provision exists as the male estate has greater capacity to manage prisoners who pose an exceptionally high risk to others.

Berkinthebag
(4) Given all of the above – any future change to the GRA that formalises self-declaration will, as far as I can see, broadly result in BUSINESS AS USUAL in the Scottish prison system.

It is true that the Scottish system is more likely that E&W to move someone without a GRC into a women's prison. But I still stand by the fact that it is discretionary and the case board can decide yes or no.

A male prisoner without a GRC is legally male so they will considered for transfer to the women's estate as someone protected by the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in the Equality Act. They will be supported to live in role as a women but this can be in a male or female prison.

A male prisoner with a GRC is legally female so they will be automatically eligible for transfer to women's estate because they must be treated for all purposes as female under the Gender recognition Act 2004.

BerkInBag - (2) The case board system in Scotland is primarily there to protect the rights of the self-declared trans person in line with the rights they are accorded under the 2004 GRA

Self-declared trans people do not have rights under the GRA 2004. They are protected from discrimination under the Equality Act. GRA only applies to those with a GRC.

Prisoners with a GRC are not subject to a gender reassignment case conference. Nobody will be checking if a TIM with a GRC is 'living permanently as a woman' - their birth cert says female so they go to the women's estate.

At the moment, to get a GRC you have to have been living as your preferred sex for 2 years in any case. That's one of the criteria that's being taken away. Sign a form >> get GRC >> get new birth cert >> legally female >> women's estate with no case conference and no questions asked.

Thus even if the case boards were done away with, high risk MTF prisoners would “ be dealt with as for any other person in custody posing a risk”. To do otherwise could be considered to infringe the human rights of other prisoners.

For those with a GRC this only applies in exceptional circumstances, where a woman with a similar risk profile would also be moved to the male estate. There's case law that says attempted rape is not enough to keep a TIM with a GRC out of female prison on the grounds of custody risk.

Basically, the new style GRC would be an easy way into the female estate for those who can't even satisfy the incredibly lenient Scottish case board.

Haven’t RTFT, I don’t know if anyone’s linked to this, but pages & pages of documented hideousness committed by men, some before & some after identifying as trans women.

The anxiety is well-justified

nounequalrights.com/information/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/The-Threat-to-Women-and-Girls-Illustrated-1.pdf

Hmm, just read that report about the woman with the garrote; punched a window out & ran away, police needed reinforcements to restrain her & she kicked the police car window out on the way to the station.

Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.
That is correct. Male offenders who identify as women perpetrate crimes at the same rate as male offenders who identify as men. Though they do have a higher rate of perpetrating sex crimes than males who identify as men.

My point exactly. Do we really want to be in a situation where we don't know who is committing a crime?

Berkin

You are correct. The current definition of transgender in the Equality act affords protections to anyone who declares that they are considering transitioning.

And the protections afforded are to be treated as the opposite sex.

I believe the prison service considers on a case by case basis which strengthens their decision to use the exemptions available for segregation by sex under the Equality act.

My inside knowledge is that the police and prison staff don’t think resistance to self id will have any effect. This has been happening for years without us noticing

Absent a photo of the perpetrator Red we will never know because "misgendering" is a criminal offence in Canada.