Why are more women not worried about impact of transactivism?

I actually don't understand your point salmon come again?

Grooming them into the ideology. Not grooming them for sex.

Salmon must be having thinking problems.

Yes Salmon, online grooming to become trans, not online grooming by paedophiles as you imply. Many very sensible people believe this is one of the roots of rapid onset gender dysphoria.

There is no implication here that trans = paedophile

Online grooming of young people has already been bought up in this thread.

And you are foolish if you think that a transperson (male or female) is stronger than yourself. This is an idea of 'trans' life circulating on forums such as MN which have no bearing in reality.

Well quite. I was going to offer £1,000,000 but I thought it would make it too obviously precisely how unlikely salmonofwisdom is to find any such post.

I wouldn't grossly insult a group of people without being pretty damn sure of my facts. I've got a lot of respect for people who stick around and debate rather than bitch plop and run.

So salmonofwisdom, I presume your position is well thought out and evidence based? Let's see it then......

I'd also add to my list that a lot of people don't view women as a class of people oppressed by their biology (in Britain) and therefore don't see the need for 'sex' as a protected characteristic.

If you don't particularly see the need for a women's officer - then it wouldn't particularly bother you if the post was taken by a natal women, a trans women who had taken hormones and had surgery, or a trans women that has taken no hormones and had no surgery but feels like a woman.

Because they thing trans = people like either Miranda Yardley or caricatures like Lily Savage. They probably aren't even aware of the likes of Lily Maddigan or Dominic Whatsisface.

When I tried to discuss the issues with a particular couple, they dismissed the idea of men being allowed in changing rooms by saying it would never happen because of the outraging public decency act (or something similar). It's so far out of the picture for lots of people that they think it'll never happen.

2) Please link to the Mumsnet comment that equates gay and trans people with paedophilia and online grooming. I will donate £50 to the charity of your choice if you can find one

Should be hundreds of them, given that Salmon has seen it on a daily basis.

Except there won't be, because it only happens in Salmon's head.

Salmon I think you're underestimating quite how many women here were on your side until recently. Firmly on your side. It is distressing to realise that we were so wrong. It would be far easier to ignore the issues and scream bigot. But that is impossible when the glasses are off.

The house of cards falls down when you apply the slightest critical thought to TA's claims. When you look into the science, statistics, research, medications for kids, proposed changes to the law, education in schools etc. It's all there and overwhelmingly does not support society's current trajectory towards self ID.

Unlike saying that gay people are paedophiles, which the evidence clearly does not support. And which nobody here would claim.

@salmonofwisdom

1. no man who identifies as a woman is weaker than me. They are men.

2. Please link to the Mumsnet comment that equates gay and trans people with paedophilia and online grooming. I will donate £50 to the charity of your choice if you can find one

It's maddening how trans activists always deliberately shut down the debate by throwing insane accusations around.
No wonder people are so scared to speak out against them.

I think the key is defining transwoman not defining woman, when I talk to friends they always end up defining transwomen as men who've lived as a woman, had hormones, surgeries etc and are horrified by self I'd when they realize the implications. The problem is transwoman is a huge umbrella term now covering a far greater range of natal born men than ever before.

I get so frustrated by all the high profile women who purport to be feminists but are resolutely silent on this, the biggest threat to our rights in decades. Caitlin Moran. JK Rowling. Lena Dunham. Dawn O Porter. They’ll speak out on the safe stuff knowing everyone agrees with them. But this? Their silence is deafening.

My 18 year old dd thinks I'm a bigot.

She can't see the problem. Although all the Trans she comes in to contact with are TIFs.

There are a lot of women thinking critically about this issue. They just aren't bigots...

I suppose you're right, it is a gay issue when people like yourselves equate gay and trans people with paedophilia and online grooming on a daily basis. Never mind all the heterosexual men and women involved in these practices. Instead, the best scapegoats are those weaker than yourselves.

Right now it is all deliberately conflated so people who would naturally support gay people automatically support trans ideology without knowing anything about it.

Yes - this used to be me. I was always pro gay rights because that was a stance that made sense to me, but I could never get my head around the "born in the wrong body" thing. I'm a natural critical thinker and was drawn to the sciences from an early age so the idea of it simply didn't fit in my reality. But the dogma seemed to be that if you're ok with gay you have to be ok with trans. So I was. Until DD was born and I joined Mumsnet...and found that I was right first time.

Also, they don't realise that changes to the law will affect every single woman and girl in the country. Although the number of trans people is tiny.

I heard a spontaneous group discussion on this in a classroom on an adult vocational course recently - people totally convinced that trans women are "born in the wrong body" and universally have or want to have full surgical and hormone treatment to get rid of male primary and secondary sex characteristics and "become" female. Absolute denial that any of them want to keep their working penises.

As the bewilderness says it's about believing trans women are post op transexuals.

I think Maisy has summed up the situation for me as well. Ie. Those who have had the op (due to gender dysmorphia/being born in the 'wrong body), and the No 2 'self- identify' type.

If it wasn't for mn, I wouldn't be aware of the issues.

Recently, at work, we got talking about the use of Mrs/Ms/mx and I mentioned the cis term. No one had heard of this.

I was a teen during the 80s. I don't remember anyone has being openly gay in my school. Even at uni it was fairly uncommon. Subsequently, friends have Come-out, but at a later age. I think on the recent Child of our Time, they said the average age for coming out was 16, but for their parent, was 26+ (may have remembered that wrong). I think what I'm trying to say is that for many people, they have just caught up with the LGB movement, with some No. 1 transsexuals thrown in for good measure, but the new Trans debate is beyond them. They are just not aware of it happening, or don't really understand it.

Or are just getting on with their lives, and don't really have the time or inclination to engage with this debate, or even realise it may affect them.

I think there are lots of reasons:-
Its been mixed up with gay and lesbian rights and most people are very supportive of gay and lesbian rights.
They have positioned themselves along side BAME women and a lot of people are supportive of hearing BAME voices.
they presume trans people take hormones and have surgery and can well understand that a 'man' with boobs and a neo vagina is better placed to use the women's changing rooms than the mens
they know a trans person who has transitioned and they are just a normal person who doesn't pose any threat to anyone
they aren't really into sport and haven't really thought about it much. They get muddled up with the intersex position on sport as a lot of press tries to conflate the two.

They don't really understand biology that well.
They believe the gender divide (pink for girls, girl are caring etc) so it makes perfect sense to them that someone can feel like the opposite gender
they think its a small issue. There really aren't that many trans people about so there are bigger things to think about.

I've seen this said here before, but for me, it was a case of actively giving myself permission to think critically about this issue. It felt deviant to even start down that road. But when I did the glasses immediately fell off.

I think that a lot of women are self censoring. They bracket transactivism with LGB.

Given that transwhactivists are enormously homophobic, and more particularly lesbophobic, this is a gay issue so it's potentially not us who know diddly squat.

Basically, the reason why a lot of women support this bullshit is because women tend to be socialised to be nice and supportive. And most of the women I know who have been branded TERF or TERD as the young Madigan would have it are nice and supportive of the trans people in their lives. Lying to people or validation their delusional beliefs about themselves is neither nice, nor supportive.

There is also a level of perceived protection for women if they stand with the trans women and their male supporters, almost a Peter Pettigrew phenomenon if you will.

Unfortunately the minute those women put a foot out of line, they are rounded on and attacked themselves. At that point, they either reach peak trans, or capitulate and NEVER do it again with a side order of doubling down on their misogynistic abuse of other women.

There's a whole PhD waiting to be written about this, it's a shame no one would ever fund it.

Because we are made to feel we are bigoted by speaking out. I shared something on FB once and was surprised by the hostility I faced. I felt like I'd shared a Britain first post.

I think and hope that Mr nasty Corbyn gets bitten by this, he is already losing female voters. I can see the court cases about ‘women’ being denied things they are a load of trouble makers.

And for my sport everyone competes equally and we wear the same clothes so no problems there!

*totally different to. Not, nothing to do with.