"Wrong bathroom" sign in university toilet

If there's a criminal offence (exposure/voyeurism etc) then the police can deal with it regardless of it being committed by a woman/man/trans individual it committed by a man. Simple as that.

And why should I have to wait for the police to deal with it.

Women and girls shouldn’t be in a position where they are being exposed to or assaulted. Saying that the police, who are already stretched to breaking point and aren’t hanging around in toilets, will deal with it is very very cold comfort.

I was assaulted in a women’s toilet, by a man. There was a policeman present.
So excuse me if my faith in the police is low.

If you're going to argue that if an assault/crime happens then the police will deal with it so why worry, then surely by your logic trans people are just as safe in mens facilities and don't need the women's facilities. If they get assaulted/attacked/murdered the police will deal with it, they have nothing to worry about.

I agree.

Dumping the problem on women while removing their rights to consent, safety and equal respect is an appalling solution.

Exactly.

If there's a criminal offence (exposure/voyeurism etc) then the police can deal with it regardless of it being committed by a woman/man/trans individual. If someone was filming over or under a cubicle door then that person could be arrested regardless of how they identify.

Yeah this argument gets pulled out a lot.

'Self ID does NOT pose a risk to women because if anyone offends the police will deal with it'.

Ok.

1. How many sex offences, including violent rape, get as far as a prosecution, never mind an actual sentence? I think it's 1-4% of rapists end up in prison. The track record of law currently in place in the UK doing it's job to protect women is not good at all. (And indicates the low importance put on the safety/right of women to be free of sexual harrassment, assault and abuse). So is it really sensible to change the current system intentionally in a way that makes women and girls significantly more vulnerable than they currently are, and makes sexual offending a whole lot easier and trouble free?

2. In Target, the American chain store that made their changing rooms self ID, voyeuristic crime against women and girls has between double to tripled. Changing the situation in favour of the offenders has made a serious, significant difference. The evidence is there.

3. How many women/girls are going to be comforted and the distress and impact of the voyeuristic crime/harassment/assault fully alleviated by the police eventually turning up to take a statement about the crime, maybe looking at a bit of cctv footage? Because no one is going to rush with blue lights flashing. Impact on the police. Pretty low. Impact on the offender? Pretty low. Impact on the victim? Well my first experience of sexual assault happened to me at the age of 8 and I still remember it vividly, so quite possibly, a lifetime. Ridiculously disrespectful, uncaring and dismissive argument.

4. If you're going to argue that if an assault/crime happens then the police will deal with it so why worry, then surely by your logic trans people are just as safe in mens facilities and don't need the women's facilities. If they get assaulted/attacked/murdered the police will deal with it, they have nothing to worry about.

Issue here: male violence, male crime rates. Dumping the problem on women while removing their rights to consent, safety and equal respect is an appalling solution.

What about the example I outlined? What about the men we already encounter in parks and public transport?
The ones who know just how close to take things so that they can deny anything?

The ones who stand just a little too close on the tube? Is it a bag? Is it a dick?
The ones who stare and leer, who hide their erections behind bags or newspapers so they can deny wide-eyed if you challenge them.
The ones who follow you home winking but not ever actually doing anything.
There are a fuckload of creepy men out there who get off on making women and girls uncomfortable and scared.

As an adult woman, I'm more than confident enough to confront.
As a 13 year old, I was terrified and never did. Because that would mean me initiating interaction and I had no idea what would happen next.

And that lack of confidence is why these creeps target 13 year olds and and they know exactly how close they can skate and still get away with claiming they weren't doing anything

Those are the men we are talking about. Anyone thinking that those guys won't take advantage here is incredibly naive. They are going to love this.

For the ten zillionth time, I don't think anyone cares about trans people having a wee.

This is about the creeps out there who are getting a green light to expand their predatory shit into spaces where women and girls are particularly vulnerable.
This kind of policy is incredibly poorly thought out.

Harvey Weinerstein asked women to watch him showering as part of his campaign of rape/ sexual abuse. That was wrong and illegal

What criminal offence does asking a woman to watch you shower fall under?

But if Harvey identified as a women they no the police would not be able to deal with that individual

Identifying as a woman is not a defence in law for any offences under the SOA.

If someone was filming over or under a cubicle door then that person could be arrested regardless of how they identify.

Except now they don't have to.

Other things women do in toilets include buying tampax, washing mooncups, miscarriages, most of which happen on the toilet, morning sickness, on the hour every hour, sometimes breastfeeding or expressing milk, changing clothes after heavy menstruation, escaping predatory males, etc.

Voyeurism doesn't start and end with trying to get a glimpse of someone's fanny or listen to them urinating.

Men don't do these things. But many of them fetishise them.

I'd love to see the statistics on natal female voyerism.

What about it?

If there's a criminal offence (exposure/voyeurism etc) then the police can deal with it regardless of it being committed by a woman/man/trans individual. If the original poster I quoted was indeed a police officer then they would know that, or at the very least should dig out their copy of Blackstones, or get on PNLD!

If someone was filming over or under a cubicle door then that person could be arrested regardless of how they identify.

Terrance what about the situation I outlined?

..agree , not sure what the police could do when faced with a man in a frock. Cop a feel? geddit? :D

Great user name, Terrance and Philip..:)

Or people with penises use one toilet and people with vaginas use the other. You’ll find that most public toilets are already set up like that with signs on the door and everything.
Not particularly hard is it?

None of which is any concern to the police...

I wonder how many of our politicians and institution adminstrators realise they are sitting back and watching as this trans trend unpicks all the safeguarding instincts and reactions women have created for their daughters.

What about indecent exposure/sexual exposure to a young child? Does it not count if it is in a changing room? If a child is feeling intimidated? If they have an erect penis? If they are staring at my tween girl as she gets changed? Standing less than three feet away? There is no cctv in changing rooms so at what point is my child listened to and it is decided a crime has taken place? Or is she going to be dismissed as transphobic?

What I'd hope you'd do as a professional police officer, is make an assessment if any criminal offences had taken place, and deal with them accordingly. Not particularly hard is it?

Or people with penises use one toilet and people with vaginas use the other. You’ll find that most public toilets are already set up like that with signs on the door and everything.
Not particularly hard is it?

What would I do, as a copper, when I was sent to a shopping centre toilets where a male was perving on women?
What if he told me he identified as a woman?
What if I told you he was leaning over/under cubicle doors?
What if there was footage on his phone of it?

Would that make things different?

Given that voyeurism laws are not sex specific (as I'm sure you know) it wouldn't matter what he told you as to how he identifies.

What I'd hope you'd do as a professional police officer, is make an assessment if any criminal offences had taken place, and deal with them accordingly. Not particularly hard is it?

separate rooms containing conveniences are provided for men and women

But here is the rub. Define man and woman. If you change that definition, which is what is happening, then this is meaningless.

not discriminated against. Sorry on phone.

No, the regulations only go as far as to state that separate conveniences must be provided for men and women. They don’t cover who can use them.

There is no law that prevents men from using women’s toilets as far as I know.

The relevant case law that I know about:
www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case

This case concerned a post-op transsexual who had lived as a woman for 20 years or so, who won the case re using woman’s toilet.

This is the case law cited by the Scottish schools guidelines in order to argue that trans people should be allowed to use the toilets if their choice.

HOWEVER

There is another case, Croft v Royal Mail which found that a man who had not undergone surgical transition was no discriminated against by being asked to used the disabled facilities.
www.elliswhittam.com/transgender-toilet-facilities-regulations

Sarah getting society over gender stereotypes would help hugely with relieving the pressure on young teenagers struggling with dysphoria and keeping it at gnc/ social transition as much as is possible is by far the most protective and safest thing to do.

What do you think would help your child and others in that position? What could be done? I have worked many times with children and young people with disabilities who move or physically present in unusual ways and deal with this, and sometimes teaching them a phrase or script to say when stared at or challenged has helped them feel more prepared and confident.

There need to be ways to help your daughter and transmen feel safe (and transwomen to feel safe in men's bathrooms) without a ridiculous piece of badly thought out legislation (with a heavy, hidden agenda not about trans people at all) that just lets any bloke with a sex offending history crack on with a whole new pool of victims and legally downgrades women to subhuman. We have to be capable of coming up with more nuanced, sophisticated answers to the challenges of people who suffer with gender dysphoria than this.

Thanks Name

So this is the relevant and important bit

separate rooms containing conveniences are provided for men and women except where and so far as each convenience is in a separate room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside.

So, if you are Self IDing as a woman, you shouldn’t by law be using women’s toliets as you are legally “a man”?

Definitely Lizzie.

Here is the relevant bit of the regulations, see 2c.
www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/toilets.htm

Please, please challenge using this if it happens at your workplace. I have and it worked.

Unfortunately it only applies to workplaces and not public conveniences.