help me out - trans suicide rates?

Independent to the trans stuff, a long time ago, I dated someone with MH and anxiety issues

He screamed at me that he was thinking of dying every day, and I had to “help” him.

His MH issues were diagnosed, and he had proper support from his GP and student services and counselling services and platonic friends and family.

He didn’t want to use these, of course.

Why would he want to “get better”?

getting better wasn’t what he actually wanted?

What he meant was “my mental health issues will only be solved by YOU (attractive youngish woman) giving me sex and allowing me as self defined “victim” to cross your physical and social boundaries

I’m a softie and was quite naive at the time so did want to help.

But he told me he didn’t want to go out for coffee and talk, or go for a walk or a drink

he wanted to either push me into having sex or “do sports with me”

basically we’d go for a run “as friends” and he’d stare at me whilst nursing a semi erection. This would “save” him.

This dynamic is what the trans depression suicide stuff reminds me of. A lot.

MH issues are serious and need support.

But so many controlling men threaten to harm themselves, simply to get unlimited access to or get the attention of women who aren’t sexually interested in them that it’s hard not to put this statistic into this category.

I wonder: does claiming a suicidal ideation helps to jump the queue / shorten the wait for hormones / surgery / etc?

This article explains another difficulty with the figures and studies given by TRAs. Ie the use of the phrase 'attempted suicide' which implies particular motivation and risk for an act of self harm.
The author was the chair for the NICE guidelines on self harm and is on the team running the National Confidential Inquiry into suicide so is quite authoritative. In summary it explains why using 'attempted suicide' and trying to assign motivation for self harm is too problematic to be useful in predicting future death from suicide.
www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-british-journal-of-psychiatry/article/nonsuicidal-selfinjury-v-attempted-suicide-new-diagnosis-or-false-dichotomy/BF7295C2297829CF41C763E5F6D37201

I think people read '48% attempted suicide' to mean most of those will die by suicide and therefore we need to desperately do everything they say they want to prevent this almost certain outcome. This makes no sense on so many levels but my point in this post is that actually suicide still is rare even if you take the 48% at face value.

The figures are more like 1 in 100 people who present to A and E with self harm will die by suicide in the next year. Most of those will have the other mental health conditions that are well known to be associated with suicide and are well documented.

I am not wishing to minimise the issue with self harm. It is a very serious problem with a significant association with morbidity and mortality (not just from suicide). 1% is too high. However, the idea that trans people are at particularly high risk compared to anyone else who has self harmed isn't supported by the evidence. And the idea this is related to discrimination by feminists is even more tenuous. Its just been spun that way.

Ah I see.

I'm not quite getting why it has led to less needing care? Needed care, not needing care. They need it but are not getting it.
Mental illness is usually treated with long term talk therapy and other care while a medical condition is usually treated with drugs to alleviate symptoms.

Suicidal ideation is most common among adolescents with depressive disorders. This is why parents are so distressed over 100% of children who present with depression at Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center Transgender Clinic are being recommended to transitioning care.
That is one ginormous red flag.

That rings bells miri and makes sense.

That's an interesting article bewilderness. I'm not quite getting why it has led to less needing care?

The argument at WHO was that changing gender dysphoria from a mental illness to a medical condition would reduce barriers to care.
Unfortunately the result has been less needed care.
www.nytimes.com/2016/07/27/health/who-transgender-medical-disorder.html

holycheese - I remember reading somewhere that the reclassification was to shift the emphasis of treatment from one of fixing a "disorder" to one of relieving the distress of mismatch. Thus hormone and surgery is not to fix things but to relieve distress, but then you have studies as the one I linked to suggesting that suicide attempts continue or increase whilst trans lobbyists are saying this is rubbish and that treatment brings relief and prevents suicide attempts so should be made easier.

And that study is asking people who've had hormone and surgery treatment.

Ah okay. Well, it doesn't surprise me too much. My guess is that it might alleviate symptoms temporarily but the disorder is still there. It seems unlikely that more research will be done though, given that the guy who wanted to research de-transitioning was barred from doing so. Any suggestion these days that hormone treatment and irreversible surgery is not fantastic is met with accusations of transphobia.

Regarding the wording; ASD is increasingly being referred to as ASC - condition - rather than a 'disorder.' Which is more respectful. So it's possible that the wording around body dysphoria is similarly being adjusted. I don't have any issues with this actually, I'm struggling to explain why but it might be that I feel dysphoria if any sort is very much due to outside influences impacting on the individual from a young age, mainly the way gender stereotypes can be so rigid.

I did experience a type of dysphoria around my looks that really did start to get out of hand as a young adult very much stemming from a few key comments by others in my child hood/ early teens. If those outside influences did not exist I question how I would have felt regarding a particular aspect of my looks.

It's still a mental health issue but if a slightly different calibre (if any of this makes sense?!) .

I will say that a child I taught who wanted to be a girl (autistic) did it seemed to us experience all the things listed up thread when in that "character". What I used to find difficult is that when allowed to dress up during the school day, their whole persona changed. They watched a lot of American tween tv progs and appeared to put on a new personality when in this role. Luckily this child had good support and counselling and was later happy with their body, and learned they were free to enjoy what ever shows, fashion etc they liked as a boy/ man.

Maybe it doesn't help, but i guess the only people who can honestly say whether or not it does are transsexuals who have undergone hormone and surgery treatment

And that study is asking people who've had hormone and surgery treatment.

I agree with everything you've said SusanBunch.

Maybe it doesn't help, but i guess the only people who can honestly say whether or not it does are transsexuals who have undergone hormone and surgery treatment. It's probably unlikely to take away problems completely though and is likely to open up new ones. At the same time, if people want to present as women, that is not an issue for me and I think they are as deserving of respect as any other person. However, that choice to present as a woman does not mean that they now are a woman, should be permitted in women's spaces, or should claim to speak for women. Nor should the fact that they have undergone an internal struggle due to confusion over gender identity be allowed to be used to argue that biological women have some form of 'privilege', rendering their opinion less worthy. Women are literally raped and murdered every day across the world because of their biology. It is certainly not a privilege.

I've seen this which suggests that hormones and surgery don't help at all:

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

But I've also seen various trans people saying this has been totally debunked blah blah blah and haven't looked at either in great detail.

I don't think there is any evidence at all that trans kids commit suicide at a greater rate than non trans kids and so it's going on self-report of "attempts". And it strikes me as very dangerous for trans kids to keep hearing they are massively more likely to attempt suicide than other kids when this stat doesn't seem to be based on rigorous or concrete research... unless I've missed that???

That is interesting but confusing upsideup. Thank you.

upside that is interesting. I presume they can no longer say that it is a mental illness because of the negative connotations. However, I would definitely say it was an illness to hold a belief that you were born in the wrong body and feel incapable of accepting your body. Body dysmorphia where people erroneously believe that they are hideously ugly and disfigured is certainly an illness, so what is so different about gender dysphoria?

Annabelle4

As far as I was aware gender dysphoria was officially considered a mental disorder, however I just looked at the NHS website and
Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness.

Pato, oh I know. This is a very disturbed young man. This is just another manifestation of mental illness. The distress he feels has nothing to do with how people are treating him or how they will treat him when he transitions to become a woman. But he is an example of the 'suicide epidemic', yet in his case it has nothing to do with other people bullying him- it is because he is unwell.

Annabelle yes, I believe gender dysphoria is a psychiatric condition but that generally living and presenting as the opposite sex may relieve some of the symptoms. That's fine and people's psychiatric conditions should not cause them to be discriminated against. What doesn't help is the rest of the world pretending that mentally ill people's perception of themselves is in fact the truth.

I have wondered if struggling with the sex you were born with and wanting to transition to the opposite 'gender' could in fact be a psychiatric disorder?

Gender dysphoria is listed in the DSM so they will agree with you.

The problem is Transgender umbrella includes but is not limited to ppl with gender dysphoria. It also includes cross dressers and any teen with an identity crisis.

Susanbunch
Someone with eating disorders and bipolar and that long list of other mental health issues you have identified surely provides evidence that "being Transgender" is another manifestation of their underlying mental health problems.
They are not born in the wrong body.

They are looking for an outlet for internal turmoil and believe they have found it. They need help not full affirmation and a sex change.

I'm prepared to be ripped to shreds for what I'm about to say and maybe I am extremely ignorant, but I have wondered if struggling with the sex you were born with and wanting to transition to the opposite 'gender' could in fact be a psychiatric disorder?

Someone I am acquainted with has recently begun the transitioning process by the way. He is a teenager who has already been treated for bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety and various eating disorders. I would say that no matter how accepting society is towards trans people, it is surely going to be extremely mentally taxing to have a deeply held feeling that you don't belong in your own body and feeling you need to mutilate it in order to feel at peace.

Reallybadidea
There is a study that full SRS improves a patient's suicidal thoughts temporarily but then they come back.
Full reassignment did not cure their suicidal tendencies.

Datun - hmmm. Yes. Anyway, we can say it's a maximum of four young people in ten years - with roughly 10,000 referred in that period. So we can say that there is no suicide epidemic among young gender questioning people. This is a very good thing.