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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Miranda Yardley's contribution to the Woman's Place meeting on Tuesday

233 replies

LifelongVaginaOwner · 02/03/2018 12:36

I've always tended toward using 'transwomen' and preferred pronouns - if only out of courtesy. Miranda's points though have really made me reconsider. I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on this.

mirandayardley.com/en/contribution-discussion-womens-place-uk-meeting-27-february-2018/

OP posts:
TheUterati · 05/03/2018 12:25

Archery - and I am trying to get women to think and to get to that final stage of Peak Trans, to get to that final stage of consciousness raising.

I haven't said anywhere to exclude any woman.

TheUterati · 05/03/2018 12:23

If anyone wants to include 'transwoman' in their vocabulary, then they also need to include 'transblack'.

Thus, if Miranda or Debbie or Kristina, or whoever (just picking names here - nothing personal!) is a transwoman, then Rachel Dolezal is transblack.

Transblack may be a subset of White people, and not Black. But Transblack is a meaningful concept that can be used to more accurately describe reality.

There really is no difference.

ArcheryAnnie · 05/03/2018 12:20

ideological purity

It's me that has said this, and I stick by it. I think it's great if we thrash all kinds of ideas out, and we need to continue doing so. I've changed my mind a hell of a lot over the last five years, and I imagine others have done so, too - and challenging others and being challenged myself is part of that. (And not just online - offline one of my oldest, dearest friends is someone who I argue with every time we meet. I do - and have - trusted her with my life, and my arguments with her have been part of the greatest political growth in my life.) I'm not arguing against arguing, as it were.

But - we are all on a bloody journey (how I hate that phrase - it's a bit X-factor and "I'm doing this for my granny", but it serves, for the moment) and we are all at different stages. And, crucially, all our destinations aren't even necessarily the same. If we can only accept those who are at the exact same stage in their journey as we are, and only those headed for the exact same destination, we aren't going to get anywhere. We won't attract new people, and we will not be able to work collectively with the people we have. Plurality is a good thing, not a bad one.

SecretHandshake · 05/03/2018 12:19

I find it problematic that women can be awoken to the truth by you, but not by another woman.

It is problematic but it's a fact. And I don't give a shit who wakes women up. We need them awake as quickly as possible. And loads of them.

So from me it's a fucking big thank you Miranda for speaking out.

TheUterati · 05/03/2018 12:11

Miranda - I'd also be interested to know what your take would be on my analogy of a White person who makes surgical and medical alterations to their body in an attempt to create the facsimile of a Black person, adopts a 'Black' name etc, yet says: I know I am White. What would be your opinion if such a person was then included in BAME campaingns and antiracism? What would you feel if such a person was lauded and praised for stating the crashingly obvious truth that they are White?

What would you say to the use of language around this? Should we refer to these people as 'trans-racial', or should we just call them White?

Does your opinion of this differ from or coincide with your view on the inclusion of men like you here?

LangCleg · 05/03/2018 12:10

I don't know where I fit.

I say, and believe, that TIMs are a subset of men and TIFs are a subset of women.

I think women's movements should centre women and amplify women's voices and the default should be male exclusionary.

I am not in search of the good ones. Because the good ones are good men, not good almost-women.

But I think the political campaign against trans ideology should include people other than feminists.

BigDeskBob · 05/03/2018 12:09

"I think the really important thing is that we will NOT win unless we build broad alliances... and it feels crucial to give transpeople support when they speak out against the mainstream transspeak of today.."

True, but I wonder how many transpeople we are talking about? How many are truly unhappy with the way things are going and are both happy to speak up and are happy for this to be women led. How many are really ok to be called men and stay away from womens spaces?

Balance this with the number of women who may not be comfortable with saying what they really want in front of a transperson. It would be very difficult not to take into account the feelings and needs of those present, perhaps to our cost. Many women may remain silent because of a rush to include transpeople.

TheUterati · 05/03/2018 12:01

Miranda - it is the reaction to your voice in this debate by women that I find problematic, and where that is in contrast to the reaction to a woman who says the same thing.

I find it problematic that women can be awoken to the truth by you, but not by another woman. If you had said what I have said, you'd be getting cookies and you'd be told how brave and unique and insightful and valuable you are.

I do not believe that women fighting this should include you in this battle, for reasons I have stated. However, I would also state that I do not disagree with the content of anything you say (other than the use of trans - see next point). I think that to include you is contradictory and involves a huge amount of cognitive dissonance in order to maintain the disconnect. I think that to include you poses a danger because of female socialisation, patriarchy, your male socialisation, way in which language shapes thought etc etc.

I also firmly believe that using 'trans' in ANY context is problematic. It reifies something that does not exist. It is an agreement with TRA that this concept exists and can be meaningfully used to communicate about reality (notwithstanding that the conceptualisation and use of the concept may differ). Hence and use of trans gives TRA a victory. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A TRANSWOMAN.

Why are we (and I include my historical self in this) are obsessed with finding and centering 'the good ones'? Why are we so obsessed with praising men like you who, despite participation in 'trans', assert biological reality? I do not believe it is only because he 'good ones' and their words can be a useful weapon in this fight.

All of this women need to think about and to analyse.

AngryAttackKittens · 05/03/2018 11:55

The Uterati is right, and it's frustrating to watch the same dynamic play out over and over again on multiple threads. That being said, the more people who say "these are men" the more other people feel like they can say it, and there's been a definite shift in the number of women comfortable doing so over time.

For those of us who say that it's not about enforcing ideological purity, it's just an obvious statement of fact. Water is wet, fire is hot, and trans women are men (and trans men are women). Being gender non-conforming doesn't change your sex.

vaginafetishist · 05/03/2018 11:44

I think the Uterati is right. I felt it in myself, that feeling of permission, when Miranda said these are men.
I felt myself the awkwardness of worrying about how Debbie and Kristina felt when Julia spoke up. This IS female socialisation.
At the Speakers Corner talks Julia spoke about naming these men as men and it was powerful and it is liberating.

loveyouradvice · 05/03/2018 11:40

I think the really important thing is that we will NOT win unless we build broad alliances... and it feels crucial to give transpeople support when they speak out against the mainstream transspeak of today... I strongly believe we need to find more of them so that people begin to understand that transdogma is NOT coming from the whole transcommunity, and then start to question the dogma itself, rather than just accepting it .... SO I ACTIVELY WELCOME ANY TRANSPERSON WHO IS PREPARED TO CONTRIBUTE TO OUR DISCUSSIONS and applaud them for working alongside us to create real change on this which affects BOTH groups - trans and women (and men if they but knew it - but that is a whole bigger campaign!)

mirandayardley · 05/03/2018 11:37

TheUterati

Would you consider his words seriously and agree with him? Because it seems that it takes a man like this to get some of you to change your thinking. It seems that it is necessary for some of you for a man like this to give permission before you can change your thinking.

I agree this is a problem.

mirandayardley · 05/03/2018 11:32

I thought I’d try and clarify some points made on this thread.

Whether I spoke or not, I was caught between a rock and a hard place; to have remained quiet would have signalled tacit agreement to something I disagreed with, and of course my speaking up meant imposition.

I think one can define ‘transwoman’ in a way that is consistent and reflects reality, and that’s certainly something that seemed to offer compromise some time ago, but of course it wasn’t ever enough. Anyway, I don’t think trans identified males can claim ‘woman’ in any form, as this makes the word ‘woman’ meaningless.

I do not speak ‘as a feminist’ or ‘as a feminist ally’. I’m an ally only to those who accept me as such, and as I’m often reminding people on Twitter, I speak for myself. I certainly do not speak ‘for’ women, nor do I need the validation of women to take my political positions: this is based on classic liberalism and socialist/Marxist analysis. I always acknowledge women’s words when I use them in any context, for example I always underscore the contribution Harriet Taylor made to JS Mill’s works ‘on liberty’ and ‘the Subjection of women’. Taylor is arguably this country’s greatest unknown philosopher.

Regarding pronouns and labels, to be clear, I have never considered TIMs female, as my earliest writings show. The corollary is TIMs being men, I have never shied away from this. I discretely stopped actively using that description I think in 2015, that said I’ve ised it politically a couple of times since and I’ve never demanded anyone call me ‘she’ or ‘her’.

I wrote a blog post last year disavowing ‘woman’ in any form being used for males, as my position had evolved over time and I felt it necessary to clarify.

My audience is not women, I am trying to reposition the trans movement. I write and say what I do to counter the lies and misinformation used by transgender activists which are being used to instrumentalise children in the trans battle and make the concept of a child’s personality determining their ‘brain sex’ culturally acceptable. This is a fight I think we all need to focus upon, as ghastly organisations like GIRES, Gendered Intelligence and Mermaids are getting the moral and financial support to push their homophobic, misogynistic message thus normalise this in schools etc., without there being debate or tolerance of counter-arguments. This is the real battleground now, and whatever else these men are doing pales into insignificance compared to what they are doing with children.

I think the transgender movement now has gone beyond any viable compromise. Much of the noise is newly-hatched recent ‘transitioners’ who exit the closed Facebook groups and other fora to bring forth their wrath and Male entitlement. These men are some of the most abusive men I’ve encountered in my life, and are cheered on by such malignant woman-haters as Roz Kaveney and Sarah Brown.

The transactivists are playing a long game, and they’ve had control of the centre for so much time they’ve been able to redefine it. This really is an all-out political war.

TheUterati · 05/03/2018 11:20

Lang - my point was that when I say there is no such things as trans, etc etc.... I am told (by some) that I am policing women's language, being divisive (possibly deliberately so), being Not Helpful, being transphobic, being exclusionary, demonstrating a lack of understanding and appreciation for the nice ones, ideological purity, not making room for 'everyone' in this fight.

Yet, if Miranda said exactly the same things that I am saying, would those women here who say I am policing, being unhelpful, etc etc suddenly sit up and take notice?

I think they would. I think that they would accept my words if they were uttered by Miranda.

LangCleg · 05/03/2018 11:15

(Also - it would bring into greater clarity the AGP fetishists.)

LangCleg · 05/03/2018 11:14

TheUterati - why wouldn't I take it seriously? That would basically be conceptualising my view of dysphoric trans - in a patriarchal society, the primary oppressed group is women, obviously, but there is a very small subset of males who cannot cope and become, for want of a better way to describe it, refugees from the ascribed socialised gender role. They exist. Society has not managed to break up patriarchy, so must therefore accommodate these males in some way. Clearly, I think patriarchy should be forced to acknowledge and accept these males as gender variant males. So Miranda saying that would be a good thing, in my opinion. Because if we got to that point then the question of body modification would have no social implications - it would just be a decision between doctor and patient about the most effective way for that individual to combat dysphoria.

SexMatters · 05/03/2018 10:53

Sorry to crash your thread, but I have been away, then snowed in, and have a lot of catching up to do. Would it be possible for some of you to give this thread a visit?www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3185398-Biological-SEX-MATTERS-How-many-mumsnetters-say-aye-to-this-campaign

Flowers
TheUterati · 05/03/2018 10:39

So.

If Miranda, or someone like him, who is equally respected and admired by you all, comes out at the end of his journey and says:

There is no such thing as trans. I am just a man. Not a trans anything. Using the word 'trans' capitulates to TRA.

What would you say then?

If he goes on to say:

My presence in your fight against this is inappropriate. I need to take the fight against this elsewhere.

What would you say then?

Would you consider his words seriously and agree with him? Because it seems that it takes a man like this to get some of you to change your thinking. It seems that it is necessary for some of you for a man like this to give permission before you can change your thinking.

Or will you denounce this as: policing women's language, being divisive (possibly deliberately so), being Not Helpful, being transphobic, being exclusionary, demonstrating a lack of understanding and appreciation for the nice ones, ideological purity, not making room for 'everyone' in this fight?

Which will it be?

I'd put some money on him being taken seriously.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 05/03/2018 09:45

Our voices are small but many

And if we have been trained into deference then we can train ourselves out of it.

We need to keep having this conversation.

BigDeskBob · 05/03/2018 09:33

This is the op that started this thread: "I've always tended toward using 'transwomen' and preferred pronouns - if only out of courtesy. Miranda's points though have really made me reconsider."

This has been said on countless threads by countless women for years. But it took a man to get them to reconsider?

Does that prove that even when we speak to ourselves we don't even listen? Do we need to acknowledge that we need male trans voices for this to stop?

It's depressing as hell, not only because it shows how small our voices are, but what we will end up with is what male trans want, and that's not necessarily what we need.

AngryAttackKittens · 05/03/2018 09:28

This is structural, not personal

Yep. It's not a personal criticism, it's just the water that we're all swimming in.

SecretTerf · 05/03/2018 09:24

And I notice that I begin a response to a man by apologising for making my point!

I don't think it's about micromanaging conversations, but about pointing out some of the power dynamics underlying them, dynamics none of us can escape, as I just proved yet again!

SecretTerf · 05/03/2018 09:22

Truscum

I think Datun replied to me because I’d directly answered one of her posts, Datin doesn’t strike me as the type to defer to my sex grin (though I do take your point about female socialisation and ‘being nice’ by default for that reason)

I'm sorry to keep pushing at this one, but it's not about individual strength of character but about female socialisation and power relations in conversation. This is structural, not personal

ArcheryAnnie · 05/03/2018 09:18

I totally get why we should be having this discussion, and I totally get why women-only spaces and events and conversations are important (I've spent a big chunk of my life in women-only campaigns, much of which was spent explaining to men, again and again, why they weren't to be included), and I totally get why we all need to be on guard about our own female socialisation, and how that tends to make us people-pleasers (and especially male-pleasers), but micromanaging other women's conversations and how they navigate their relationships with potential male allies is absolutely a step too far for me.

I'm currently struggling with my own female socialisation and desire to please. I know some of you on this thread! I really like you all! I want us all to be happy feminists united under one banner! But I need to realise that despite all that it's OK for me to say, here: no, I don't agree with you on this one. Self reflection, yes, I'm totally up for that. But ideological purity and micromanaging each other, that's really not how I want to work on this, and I'm not going to.

Truscum · 05/03/2018 09:14

I think the issue that people are worried in terms of meetings etc is women being socialized to give men more space to speak and that potentially meaning that say Miranda gets time to speak and a woman who wanted to doesn't

That is definitely something that needs guarding against (and perhaps I’m just paranoid but I was always slightly concerned a man could infiltrate those meetings and sow discord’)

I think Datun replied to me because I’d directly answered one of her posts, Datin doesn’t strike me as the type to defer to my sex Grin (though I do take your point about female socialisation and ‘being nice’ by default for that reason)

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