A New Feminist

Why else do we accept gay men into our spaces and think of him as a female

That's not what happens with OSTs (unless you really do not know they are trans).
Women accept them into the realm of womanhood out of courtesy and a feeling of kinship, you assume they have sympathy and empathy of womanhood far exceeding that of non trans males.

Also, they fancy men. They are not going to pin you down and rape you. They pose virtually no threat.
So we accept them. We do not believe they are female.

"We nearly all agree that spaces should be segregated by sex, not gender. Why then do we afford the gay man the right to be there wearing his woman costume? Why aren't we offended by that costume and the belief that liking men means he's a woman? The only explanation that I can think of for this is that we do not consider that gay man is a real man. And if he's not a real man ,well, then he must be a type of woman ,so he's welcome and can come in. It's an uncomfortable thought but perhaps one we should address."

Women have for a long time let gay men into their circles in a way that they will not let straight men in, however they are dressed. Because we do not perceive them as a threat, we can be fairly confident that they actually like us and are not just trying to get into our knickers.

Most TIMs are "lesbians" though, aren't they, now? Or at least many of the loudest TRAs are.

But, deep down some of us must also believe that woman/ female is a set of stereotypes and behaviours. Why else do we accept gay men into our spaces and think of him as a female?

I don't think of them as female and never have. I used to be willing to accept them into women's spaces based on the "oh but they're not doing any harm" argument and not having thought it through properly, and have now changed my mind. It's not logical, it's not fair to women who find the presence of any male traumatic, and it's far too difficult to police if we were to argue that group A is allowed in and group B isn't.

Tra's believe that a woman/ female is a set of stereotypes and behaviours. Most women find that offensive and misogynistic.

But, deep down some of us must also believe that woman/ female is a set of stereotypes and behaviours. Why else do we accept gay men into our spaces and think of him as a female?

Tim performing overly sexual stereotype = No
Tim living quietly = Yes.

I'm not happy to segregate by stereotypes and behaviours.That is exactly what tra's are proposing. It is the male body i object to, not the behaviours he performs of the costume he wears.

Oh sorry

And that those posters could possibly be supportive

It's not about individuals. There's nothing wrong with you supporting your friend.

Exactly.

A tiny (and by tiny, I mean tiny) population of post-SRS transsexuals exist. And these folk do genuinely inhabit a grey area in psycho-social terms.

There are so few of them that they don't really present a problem.

Nothing to do with the transgenderism movement or gender identity ideology, which must be fought at all costs.

datun

I agree

And i am not referring to catinthebath at all, but thats what i find is more of the more infuriating aspects of this

Some posters seem to think that no gender critical poster knows anyone who is trans or gay

Catinthebath

It's not about individuals. There's nothing wrong with you supporting your friend.

To my eyes, the protestors look like silly teenagers who think they are sticking it to the man.

It was said above that impressionable teens jump on the bandwagon I think...?

the video is interesting.

I agree Iced she cannot be a woman but she is living her life as one and I support her in that. I realise many would not accept my friend but whilst recognising the conflicts and tensions of this issue, I do. The biological facts don’t change that and don’t invalidate her life.

No Iced, because that wouldn’t identify her as a man.

No indeed it wouldn't. Only having a penis and a Y chromosome would identify her as a man. Just like only having a vagina and an XX chromosome identifies you as a woman.

A man cannot be a woman.

A woman cannot be a man.

My friend identifies as a woman.

If I 'identified' as Japanese, on the basis of liking sushi and owning a few bonsai trees, could I demand that actual Japanese people accept me as such, with all the benefits that would entail?

I do think it's a type of homophobia.Or discrimination. We certainly seem to feel sorry for them. Whatever is behind it, it's obvious we don't perceive them real men.

It’s a different angle; I’ll need to give it some thought. I suppose the failed man defaulting to woman category thing could be underpinned by homophobia and/or misogyny.

There is a vid on another thread of Portland City uni, Oregon. An evolutionary biologist said there are biological differences between men and women, height, for instance. A whole section of the student body walked out saying it was brainwashing and fascist.

It’s one thing hearing about such nonsense, but quite something to see them in action.

No Iced, because that wouldn’t identify her as a man. My friend identifies as a woman. I appreciate self identity is an issue but I can’t and won’t be black and white in my approach to my friend. My friend is the only experience of a transsexual I’ve knowingly had. My treatment of her first and foremost is as a friend.

I talk to her about bras, belly fat, her grandkids sleeping patterns, opening wine before 5pm. Not usual discussions I’d have with men, though it’s possible I could.

So if a woman - ie someone with an XX chromosome and a vagina - liked chatting with the lads about football and drinking beer, would they accept her as a man and direct her to the men's jacks?

I don't want to sound like I'm challenging you, OP, but surely there's something not quite right with equating stereotypical 'feminine' personality traits with the biological fact of being a woman?

I agree it's not hard to sometimes talk to TIMs about 'women's stuff'.

They may well be interested, and it is, after all, affirming for them.

But, I have noticed, if you don't affirm them, the reaction is swift and negative. Male socialisation is difficult to abandon.

That may not be the case with your friend, OP, but a lot of the time we don't know it, because we don't go against our socialisation and do it.

It's not necessary and it's hurtful.

But that's how we got into this mess in the first place.

I don't know the answer.

I do know that rights conflict on a profound level. And it's impossible to please everybody.

Chartreuseveii have always felt like that. Did people ever really believe that it was possible to change sex? I wonder if people felt that they could object ten years ago.

Hipster yes, I do think it's a type of homophobia.Or discrimination. We certainly seem to feel sorry for them. Whatever is behind it, it's obvious we don't perceive them real men.

There seems to be the idea that tims who have surgery are harmless and genuine.That's not true at all.

transcrimeuk.com

womanmeanssomething.com/violencedatabase/

This tim Clare came here recently to tell us that he's a harmless tim and has had full surgery. Yet when you look at his blog he acknowledges he's an Agp and has an interest in little girls clothes. He is legally allowed in women's spaces.

clareflourish.wordpress.com/trans-blog/

I don't believe trans is a real thing. I think it's a mental illness on some level.A mentally well person knows they can't change sex. Most Tim's who have surgery are just as misogynistic as Tim's who haven't had surgery and they are using the same stereotypes to define womanhood.

As for all the genuine harmless surgically altered Tim's, I don't suppose you know if they are harmless or not unless you ask them the questions or tell them No.

I don’t think of her as a trans woman, just as a woman albeit biologically she is not.

Just a question, OP.

You say you see this person as a woman, "albeit biologically she is not." But what is being a woman except a biological condition? Some women like lipstick and high heels, others prefer scrubbed faces and walking shoes. Some women like cooking and fashion, others prefer football and science. But they are all women, by virtue of the fact that they were born with a double XX chromosome and have female sex organs.

A person who 'identifies' as a woman simply isn't a woman, however much surgery they may have had, or however well they may 'pass'. That's not prejudice, that's simple biological reality.

It's not being talked about Chartreuseveil. Women are being censored.

None of this info is secret. It's all there on the net. And not necessarily articles, opinions or blogs. The studies, surveys and scientific evaluation.

But women are being silenced at a truly alarming rate.

The TRA hashtag NoDebate is no coincidence.

Meetings are targetted, violently, women are doxxed, their employers called, police are being urged to arrest women for standing up, most mainstream media is woefully one sided.

Schools have been fed propaganda for years. TRAs have insinuated themselves in positions of power, not just politically, but everywhere, including feminist groups - by women, for women (as long as you centre men and shut up about biology).

Academia has been hit hard. The very place where dissent has historically been encouraged.

Women disagreeing are jeopardising their jobs.

There is a vid on another thread of Portland City uni, Oregon. An evolutionary biologist said there are biological differences between men and women, height, for instance. A whole section of the student body walked out saying it was brainwashing and fascist.

Here is a thread about women scared for their jobs.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3162788-Whats-it-like-being-gender-critical-in-your-workplace

It's quite incredible that in 2018 women are being so relentlessly subjugated.

Especially as most people don't even know it's going on.

Until it happens to them.

good thread, well done op

Those of us who are okay with it in certain situations don't get to tear down other women's boundaries without their consent.

I agree.

I do think toilets are a bit of a red herring. Nobody is going to get that upset about a passing TIM using facilities like everybody else does - wee, wash hands, leave.

BUT - anybody who thinks that AGP men are going to do that has never been at a "tranny night" in a pub or club back in the days when the two populations were separate. It's like that pop video Shon Faye appeared in - the thrill is standing in front of the mirror with your lipstick and generally being obvious about being there.

I don't want to be forced to participate in someone else's self-directed sexuality, which is what AGP is.

So, for example, I appreciate why many women only want another woman to perform a smear test on them. I don't care about that personally - I'd be as happy for a bloke to do it as a woman. But I definitely don't want an AGP doing it because the only reason an AGP would be in that job would be to get validation.

We need single sex services - both for the women who only want other women in intimate situations or space AND for the women who don't consent to being a validation object in an AGP man's sexuality.

Some awesome posts on here

Very thought inspiring...which sounds like an arsey way of saying its made me think

Good thread so far chartreus

Ive never bought into the gayman being an honorary girl...though i do know a number of my associates do