Dear Sophie Walker...

Anything WEP says smacks of hypocrisy now. They want to talk about sex discrimination they need to recognise sex as the axis of oppression.

As an outsider looking in now it seems like its the Sophie Walker party at the moment, the notion that she will retain leadership/can't be successfully challenged.

Parties make mistakes and come back, they make U-Turns but how long are people meant to put up with the mistakes for? Has it not been throwing women under the bus almost as long as it has existed? It hardly has a proven track record in which we can recognise this as a blip because of 'bubble' leadership. Nah mate.

I noted that in their hustings for leader, the chair of the meeting issued strict instructions to delegates to only read the question on their card as they had been pre moderated. My assumption was to ensure that no one asked awkward questions - like define woman.
As the London meeting the other night and this board demonstrate, feminist action is diverse - it always has been and that is its strength.

The fact that the WEP have taken a stance where commenting on harm being done to children can lead to expulsion shows how they are being run by a misogynistic cabal - they're just unfit for purpose.

RNBrie
Well clearly changing an existing party is not easier than starting a new one, as Heathers experience has shown - and your reaction to her challenge.
If there is no room for even the mildest disagreement over such a very serious issue, then WEP is not fit for purpose. If every WEP member and representative can only spout the manifesto, discussion has been stifled.

I cant think of any issue that affects women that is not serious, contentious and most likely polarising as a result. Women need to be robust and fearless.
Although abortion and FGM are as contentious as the trans issue, I don't see women publicly forced to toe the party line over them. We can all see this issue is different.

@ArcheryAnnie you're right about the last conference being in 2016. I wasn't there, I didn't know it was happening despite being a paid up member at the time. I will be at the next one which is 7/8/9 Sept, location TBD.

I actually don't know if the gender recognition piece was specifically voted on at conference in 2016. I have just been assuming it was because Sophie keeps hiding behind "what our members voted for at conference" whenever she's asked about it. It will piss me off if it wasn't actually decided on there!! I'll see if I can find out.

The complaint process is a formal thing done by executive committee made up of officers of the party. They did their investigation and made the decision regarding HBE being sacked as a spokesperson. They've repeatedly refused to release the justification for it under the premise of protecting everyone's privacy. It's pissed off a lot of members - especially as i understand HBE has now given her permission?! Anyway, it's been a good catalyst for the gender critical among us to find each other and start to mobilise.

From what I understand, although the complaints came after the radio program, what HBE said on Moral Maze wasn't the problem, but what she said on social media was at it contravened the party line. She was asked to stand down as a party spokesperson which makes sense to me if she's not towing the party line and she chose to resign from the party. I could have all that wrong because the information coming out of central office was shit.

It does not mean that HBE was wrong to say what she said but it just makes no sense for her to remain a spokesperson for a party she doesn't agree with.

I don't expect anyone outside WEP to care much about it's constitution. Why would you? Unfortunately Sophie Walker does have to care what it says if any of us want ever want the party to be taken seriously. She can't just make it up as she goes along.

I still take the view that changing an existing party is easier than starting a new one. And I reserve the right to change that view if another party does crop up that I can get behind but I won't be starting it.

I think it's unfair to expect Sophie Walker to turn around overnight and announce new policy in contravention to the constitution, it just doesn't work like that when you have several thousand members.

Mate, nobody outside of WEP gives two ticks for its constitution. THAT is the bloody problem. And if WEP has a constitution that mandates the sacking of Heather for mild comments about drastic medical intervention in children on BBC radio and suitable for broadcasting AT TEA TIME, then what kind of party for women is WEP? A useless one, that's what.

Surely even members can see that?

Oh and I see no value in Sophie doing another webchat now. She has to tow the party line (literally) even if the party line is wrong. Else she'll have to HBE herself....

I can't see anything changing publicly until after the next conference. All Sophie can do is keep trotting out the crap about listening and taking notes.

I don't think it's fair to write off the party just yet. It's only been around 2 years and mistakes have been made - its embarrassing as a member - but I'd like to give the leadership a chance to fix it which can only really happen at conference.

Establishing a political party is not straightforward and I genuinely believe it will be easier to fix what's wrong (and keep what's right) than to start over.

The HBE situation was handled really badly but it has been helpful to raise awareness internally.

I think, what? 90%? of women (not just WEP members but all women) have no idea that they could be about to lose all exclusions in the equality act and what that means. They have no idea what a GRC is or how to get one or how that might change and what that means.

What WEP needs most right now is diversity of thinking so we can step out of the white middle class thing and the best way for that to happen is if everyone on these threads joins and comes to conference and votes on the motion to change the constitution.

I think their time has come and gone - what they say and how they behave doesn't add up.

They say they are still making policy yet make HBE resign
They turn up to WPUK mtg and take notes - WTF!! If they aren't across the issues by now why not - exactly what are they doing?
If they don't have supporters feeding into them the concerns of women, why not and what are they there for?

They need to be set aside and effort put into a new political movement. I hate the pleading for them to get their act together - that's taking too much responsibility for them. They're grown women, they can ask for help from others - but instead they choose to go their own way and make decisions that fly in the face of their mission - I say again WTF. Really turn and walk the other way - life's too short - it's like trying to get an abusive partner to change - all the exisiting political parties are like that - see the opportunity…...

Last time Sophie did a webchat it was a car crash. The problem is you can't keep both sides happy and she/WEP have boxed themselves in now. If they move to a more GC stance they are going against the wishes of their party members. If they don't then they don't represent their target audience and won't attract votes.
I think it's they end for WEP.

Sophie really, really needs to come and talk. So many of us are poised to support the WEP but can't if they don't know what a woman is.

Great letter Annie.

They need to realise ho scared we are for our daughters, particularly if they aren't performing girls correctly.

I'm a long standing member of WEP. I'm not a prolific poster on Mumsnet (mainly to keep my addiction in check) but I've been around a while.

I think it's unfair to expect Sophie Walker to turn around overnight and announce new policy in contravention to the constitution, it just doesn't work like that when you have several thousand members. As a member, I'd be pretty hacked off if that did happen regardless of what the policy was relating to.

Nonetheless I am also hacked off that WEP are continually hiding behind a constitution that was written around 6 months after the party formed at the one and only party conference and there has been no subsequent forum to address issues in it.

At the moment, we are in the middle of a leadership election which Sophie will no doubt win. (Sorry to Magda, I know you read Mumsnet and you are super but Sophie is just too high profile and feted to beat right now). This does mean we are in purdah at the moment so it's difficult to get anything done.

After the local elections in May (in which I have been selected to stand as a candidate and is taking up all of my spare time at the moment) there are a number of us working behind the scenes to get this front and centre at the next WEP conference in Sept.

It has been extremely difficult to raise any gender critical discussions thus far. But those of us who disagree with our constitution are increasingly finding one another and are hoping to enact change. I was really pleased to hear that Sophie made it to the women's place meeting. I was genuinely surprised even if she didn't say all the right things at least it feels like a start (finally).

I agree, I was SO excited when the WEP was formed. And now... they just reinforce the sense that we can't speak, even in a very moderate way, about anything remotely gender critical. I have a teenager and it is clear that many of her peers now believe that if they do not perform femininity they are not female.

I'm afraid WEP has long been written off for me as primarily representing TIMs. Once a women's party is so compromised that it's automatically put the interests of people with penises first then there really isn't any point debating further.

There can be no middle ground here, no compromise is possible. Either you stand for 'everyone who identifies as a woman' - which means TIM front and centre, 'woman' now means 'TIM' and biological women get handmaidening (sorry, fuck that. Rebel not a slave). And every biological woman WILL come to realise that. If self ID goes through there is going to be a very angry, massive womens liberation movement going nuclear in the UK. It's already rumbling.

Or you get a grip and admit you've made a massive, massive mistake, and it'll be open season on the WEP by the TRA lobby. I don't envy you either position, I really don't.

It's a great, great shame, I had high hopes when the party was formed.

meanwhile one of WEP's TIM members thinks us having a discussion is cancer: twitter.com/antoniamichele7/status/968795332678246405

WEP, so disappointing. Bizarre, middle class policies, patronising attitude to voters, clearly had not a clue about what mumsnet really is. Fuck off. Do some listening. Come back when you give a shit about issues that affect women who don't live in Islington.

Then fuck off again. They really get my goat.

I would like to ask Sophie whether, as the mother of an autistic daughter, she is concerned about the prevalence of rapid onset gender dysphoria in autistic girls.

I would also like to ask Sandi how she feels about the cotton ceiling.

And I'd like to ask all of them for a proper definition of woman.

Agree with everything you’ve said, ArcheryAnnie.
Did Sandi T really never return to that original thread? That’s really crap.

Great post Annie.

What is a woman? Start from there.

Thank you ArcheryAnnie , maybe Sophie will add to her notes?

To be fair to Sophie, from my vantage point she had actually taken a lot of notes in her notebook. It still makes me think that her actions now are a bit shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. That they thought they could get away with abusing women and that we would politely accept it but are now trying to backtrack. What also springs to mind is the old 'I hit you because I love you', 'I promise I will change, give me another chance'.

I agree with all the above posters. I would just add, why do we and the WEP have to debate 'woman'? Why do we have to listen to arguments and reflect on the idea that woman is a feeling and may actually be based on stereotypes not biology? It suggests that 'the other side' feels entitled to argue this, believes we can be worn down or that their point of view will eventually triumph. Why do we have to take a reactive position?

I get the need for debate around issues in which many views of the best way forward need reconciling and maybe this is just a feeling which will pass but why is it that woman must always hear men out? Why are our legal protections up for debate? We are not talking about the best method to achieve something but actual philosophical and legal existence.

I compare it to other things I will not debate, my views are entrenched on. Pedophilia not o.k. - I won't consider arguments for. Bestiality, not o.k. I won't consider arguments for. Racism, not o.k. - I won't consider arguments for. Rape, not o.k. - I wont consider arguments for (yes, they have been made). and on and on.

I fear I risk turning into a bit of a TRA in reverse with this stance. Maybe I am just a bit weary and will have a bounce back.

Also, disclosure: I am biased, another member of WEP was incredibly hostile and rude to me a few months back when I asked an innocent question even before the HBE scandal. I just think WEP are the dregs and patriarchy with a purse.

Another one who urges Sophie Walker (and Sandi Toksvig et al) to be brave.
You allowed the WEP to be colonised by transactivists seeking to change society and the WEP for their own ends. I believe that this was politically naive rather than deliberate misogyny but when you ended up criticising Heather BE for her very mild comments on the Moral Maze, you gave a very clear statement about the party's values.
I believe that if you really are serious about women and feminism then you have to stand up and be clear:
Children must not be medicalised and 'watchful waiting' is a legitimate and ethical approach to gender non conforming children
There is NOTHING wrong with women's biological identity
Women have every right to expect privacy, dignity and safety (as enshrined in the Equality Act) and those men who seek to become women should be respectful of women's rights and not seek to undermine them
The penis is NOT a female organ.

If the WEP cannot openly state the above, then what use are you as a party for women?

I'm not certain that you can reverse this to be honest but IF you are really listening to women then you'd better give it a go and try and do the ONE thing that the WEP is meant do - stand up for women.

Dear Sophie,
It’s very hard for me to see another perspective on something that urgently affects me as a woman, my children who are gender-noncomforming, and all the young people I work with who are utterly surrounded by the trans ideology. But I understand that you are still dealing with this as a debate rather than what it is for many of us here, as a utterly dangerous ideology that needs to be resisted in the same way that eugenics or fascism did.

Nevertheless I say to you: this is the time to be brave. Your daughters will thank you.

And from a purely practical point, this is your chance to really differentiate yourself as a party - if you stood up for women, it would be a vote winner. Your policies as they stand are simply too mainstream. In trying to please everyone you please no one.