Let's Talk about White Feminism

Wouldnt argue with that magnificent

where I have links my FB would become full of what about women in Saudi Arabia. As if women have to shut up as long as they are better off than women in S.A.
This is why you got some snarky responses magnificent. A while ago we had one of those guys persistently visiting the board and the MO was to start an "innocent" thread with...I've been lurking, you're great....and then to over time degenerate into extreme goady fuckery.

We have also had a few.... interesting.... opinions on white feminism threads before.

I'm glad you posted though.

With respect to the hijab, a p.p. is right that it isn't that long ago that western women had to be covered, wear a hat while out and the sight of an ankle was risque. In fact I read that raising hems above ankles was a direct result of the women's march in 1915. Women shortened their skirts to avoid mud on the march and it became a trend.

Women were also expected to cover their heads in church until very recently, for all I know they might still be in some churches.

So, our history as women of being expected to be covered, to have standards of dress imposed externally, are more similar across cultures than different I think.

Well that kicked off...yes Tells That's how I meant it. One top of/as well as-thank you!
And Dora do you know that I'm white? Or are you just assuming and explaining racism to me?

Pragmatically speaking (as a white feminist) thebewilderness nailed it for me.

If a woman of colour tells me I am failing to understand something important about intersectional feminism due to white privilege then I will listen and do my best to learn.

If a white man tells me the same thing then unless he's extremely persuasive I will assume he's attempting to shame me into silence in order to protect his own white male privilege and he can fottfsof

What seems rude to you, Dora, may just being trying to be very very clear because of the ease of misunderstandings when writing comments on forums. You keep telling her off and she keeps saying it is a misunderstanding. Then you tell her off again.

thebewilderness I wasn't aware of the elevatorgate thing as an origin for the use of the "white feminism" meme - thank you!

No, I'm saying you can make your point without responding to me as if I'm stupid. You could have made your point regarding your interpretation of ifnots wording without the 1+1 bullshit. You could have further clarified your interpretation without insinuating that my opinion was baseless because I was splitting hairs for no reason

Not a single thing I posted stated that your perspective was less important, what I took objection to was your approach but I can see you've decided to go from being rude and patronising to being deliberately obtuse. You have your perspective, I have mine. You chose to express yours your way, I express mine differently. With that in mind, I didn't comment on this thread to argue with anyone or derail the conversation so I'll leave it there. I'm more interested in the topic at hand.

I responded to the point that she made

And I responded to your point. Its how these things work. My perspective is that saying 'on top of' is the same as saying 'as well as'. Are you saying that your perspective is more important than mine?

Talk about being snarky for no apparent reason.

What exactly is your problem tells? You've been rude, disrespectful and patronising for no damn reason all over this thread. You're making yourself look incredibly juvenile.
ifnot posted her opinion on the subject matter, I responded to the point that she made. The last time I checked, that's how an online forum worked. At no point did I dismiss her opinion or tell her she was wrong for having it, I simply responded with my perspective on her choice of words as I'm perfectly free to do. I responded because I'm interested in her opinion and her thought process behind her commentary and sometimes it's ok to challenge or offer a counter view point. If you don't like what I'm saying then that's fine, challenge all you want but stop being so blood patronising and touchy just because people are offering varying perspectives and varying opinions and not accepting that your POV is one size fits all. The nature of the thread lends itself to people expressing their varying views, experiences and perspectives regarding Feminism. It might benefit you to think about why you're so triggered by the subject matter that you can't engage in the conversation without being so antagonisitic.

But that isn't what she said. She didn't say as well as, she said on top of. Thanks for the completely redundant maths lesson though

As on 'on top of having to do the laundry I also have to do the packed lunches'. This does not mean, that the laundry is balanced ON TOP OF the packed lunches, it means the laundry needs doing AS WELL AS the packed lunches. I mean, talk about splitting hairs for no apparent reason.

Er. ..no. I'm not saying there's a hierarchy. I'm saying racism is racism and misogyny is misogyny. Obviously you can experience both simultaneously but i don't see how recognising that feminism is primarily about women in general is automatically making racism less significant.

No you didn't say there is a hierarchy, I just felt that you saying on top of give the connotation that the two prejudices are separate but the reality for a lot of WOC is that the two are not, that's all. Recognising that feminism is specifically about women doesn't devalue racism, I'm just pointing out that for a lot of WOC those prejudices are experienced simultaneously due to the construct of her identity or in an entirely different subsection, again due to the construct of her identity which is why I picked up on the term on top of

For a lot of WOC is isn’t “on top” though For goodness sakes, she means as well as. She isn't saying that sexism is more 'above' or 'below' racism.

But that isn't what she said. She didn't say as well as, she said on top of. Thanks for the completely redundant maths lesson though

There was a huge kerfluffled called elevatorgate a few years ago when a blogger at Skepchick explained that she had given a talk, socialized in the bar, was followed into the elevator at 4am and invited for coffee by a man who had watched her all the night but not joined in the conversation. A conference creep. She said "Guys, don't do that".
Thousands of comments from deeply offended nice guys later Richard Dawkins wrote a post called "Dear Muslima" which basically said that this white feminist had no right to complain because women were suffering in the Middle East.
I bring this up because I saw use of this accusation by white men spread from there. 2011 to now, this "white feminism" meme has spread until white men use it every day against feminists regardless of our race creed or color.
That is completely different from when WOC speak of white Feminism. The Feminist movement has a history of fragmentation and dispute as mentioned upthread.
I am so old I remember organizing by phone tree. I love the interwebs.

nope a black woman in the U.K. will experience issue linked to fact she is a woman (like any other woman) AND the discrimination linked to the fact she is also black.
Yes that is what she said.

For a lot of WOC is isn’t “on top” though For goodness sakes, she means as well as. She isn't saying that sexism is more 'above' or 'below' racism.

1
+
1

is also

1+1

IfNot nope a black woman in the U.K. will experience issue linked to fact she is a woman (like any other woman) AND the discrimination linked to the fact she is also black
Yes. I think that's basically what I said! Or at least it's what I meant.

For a lot of WOC is isn’t “on top” though. That way of thinking suggests that there is a hierarchy to the discrimination or oppression or whatever that the WOC often faces and therefore opens the door to having her experience devalued because her argument/struggle/standpoint etc as a WOC is seen as less significant than her experience as simply woman.

Er. ..no. I'm not saying there's a hierarchy. I'm saying racism is racism and misogyny is misogyny. Obviously you can experience both simultaneously but i don't see how recognising that feminism is primarily about women in general is automatically making racism less significant.

Women of colour face racism, working class women often face poverty, but these are ON TOP of sexism and misogyny.

For a lot of WOC is isn’t “on top” though. That way of thinking suggests that there is a hierarchy to the discrimination or oppression or whatever that the WOC often faces and therefore opens the door to having her experience devalued because her argument/struggle/standpoint etc as a WOC is seen as less significant than her experience as simply woman. That isn’t quite right because as many PP have pointed out, unless you have been in the position whereby you are inherently made aware of your race or faith as part of your life experiences, then the two often cannot simply be seperated as seperate entities. For many WOC, those strands of their identity are far too closely intertwined for that distinction to be made.

IfNot nope a black woman in the U.K. will experience issue linked to fact she is a woman (like any other woman) AND the discrimination linked to the fact she is also black.
The double whammy will make her experience different than the one you experience as a white woman.

The collection of ideas that the hijab represents isn’t foreign to western feminists. It’s our very recent history.
But how can you say that what you, as a white woman from the West, saw with your ‘hijab’ is what women see in a Muslim country for example?
Who are you to say that you somehow know they feel the same and therefore you can tell these women how they feel or should aim for (I assume no need for a hijab ever??)

I know some fierce feminists who will always dress modestly. Because they are totally able to mix their religious beliefs and feminism. Whilst not being critical of women who dont want to ‘abide’ by those modesty rules.

I think the reason some feminists tend to react so strongly against hijab is that we’ve had our own “hijab”here for so long and fought like tooth and nail to get rid of it.

We know all too well the insidiousness and complexities of modesty, conformity, the sexual double standard, the idea of women being the gatekeepers of sex and virtue, etc, because that was our culture until very recently. And still is to an extent.

The collection of ideas that the hijab represents isn’t foreign to western feminists. It’s our very recent history.

Who cares if you are white? Anyone who tells you to shut up or tells others to ignore you because you are white and there are "more oppressed people elsewhere" is a bigot. It's the same as when MRAs say "but what about homeless men" in response to something a feminist says.

This is inherent in "intersectionality" and has allowed the trans agenda to thrive. They are the "most oppressed" and you can't question them from your "privileged position". Fuck right off.

Sorry if I'm missing something. .I'm not an academic - I'm just pragmatic. All this dividing women up and guilt ridden hand wringing for not being the right kind of oppressed just seems counter productive.

What the Hell is "white feminism"? I thought feminism was for all women? Surely that's the point? A black British woman will have different experiences from a Black African woman, but they will also share a lot of the same experiences, and some of these will be because of being female. Just like a white middle class woman will have a different sort of life, and different challenges to a white working class woman.
You might not have just said to your son " that junkie from up the road just let his dog shit on our garden again" ( like I just did.), you might have just said " darling it's time for your cello lesson" but it's irrelevant.

Women of colour face racism, working class women often face poverty, but these are ON TOP of sexism and misogyny.
And what feminist, white or otherwise, has been trying to ban the hijab, or invading countries to "free the women"? News to me.
Most of my women friends are feminists. They are a mixed bag- some will experience racism, some disablism etc etc. ALL experience sexism.
And why the assumption that all feminists online ( so, you know, you can't see them) are white??
That's quite an assumption really, isn't it?

I'm going tomorrow and so have spent today removing my winter pelt.

I wish I could just say fuck it but I actually find it really hard. I have a colleague who doesn't shave and doesn't care and I was surprised by how uncomfortable it makes me to see her body hair. It's really fucked up conditioning.

Someone posted recently (in another thread I think) about cultural ideas of modesty and I think that's an area which is actually really ripe for analysis. In japan and parts of Scandinavia mixed naked sauna/ hot springs is appropriate. In the U.K. we usually expect the female body to be covered from above the nipple to below the buttocks with the midriff being seen as a little racy and not something an older or larger woman would show but in India it is totally acceptable and more formal/traditional but showing the legs is immodest.

I feel uncomfortable changing in open changing rooms and try to get dressed under a towel etc but many other cultures really don't care. I remember going for a Turkish hamman where I was stripped nude and thoroughly scrubbed all over by the lady.

I find it fascinating. And in the same way we recognise men can never escape their male conditioning i don't think that we ever escape our wider cultural conditioning either.