Let's Talk about White Feminism

Well, the noun/adjective thing was pertinent to exactly that. I appreciated hearing a fresh take and enjoyed hearing it from a man, as it happens, because it was so sympathetic and not at all mansplainy

I completely disagree that women"s liberation is decadent and from the West. Women everywhere resent being subordinate to men.

An example is the feminist scholars of Timbuktu.

Yes. If black women are women then trans women are also women. Are you saying that black women are not women? You racist.

That sort of thing.

Exactly Tell. And Mocha, I’m glad you share my optimism.

Still haven't listened to it all, but a lot of what was said at the beginning about the identity being externally imposed on you by how others perceive you really resonated with me as a woman. I found it very interesting that as a white woman I shared that feeling with black men.

I enjoyed the noun/adjective idea particularly.

Lawrence Hoo is allowed to say it, but this thread (and many others) would suggest that it’s somehow not ok for me to agree with every word.

Quentin, I was distracted when it was broadcast on Tuesday so thanks for prompting me to give it my full attention.

Caught the start of this programme the other day talking about the idea of race as an identity and how controversial that is. It was fascinating, this thread has reminded me to listen to the end of it
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09sn7ym

This thread reminded me of a radio program I listened to a few months ago with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie speaking eloquently about her Nigerian grandmothers feminism so I think we should be a little careful not to think that feminism is restricted to western women's fight for equality/liberation and so predominantly white. Women in other countries have undoubtedly fought/are fighting too and their struggles, successes and challenges are as relevant if not always as well known. Given that women are oppressed (to a greater or lesser extent depending on the culture and time) across the world I think feminism is pretty much a universal movement. Perhaps bringing the work of those women into the conversation might help defang the 'white feminism' insult, although I think it's really just another way to dismiss women (of any ethnicity).

Someone using the phrase identity politics in a discussion about race is a very easy way to find someone who’s never had to consider the effect of race on their life.

That’s quite a statement.

I too have come to view the words "white feminism/ist" as unfair in too many instances because I have cringed too often at how it's used in places like Everyday Feminism. This is not to say I don't feel exasperated with white women a lot and some of those are indeed feminists but I know that it's not their fault.

Exactly this.

I see it as "white feminism" when white women suggest that black women are derailing the feminist conversation by bringing up issues of race. This is unacceptable because, as Crenshaw's work shows, black women can't separate the two. I see it as "white feminism" when people like Mary Beard use racially-loaded terms such as "civilised" - this is what she did the other day that caused the shitstorm and it wasn't intentional but it did reveal underlying and thoughtless bias on her part.

I don't see it as "white feminism" when it's used as slur to silence women talking about the inequality they live within SJW oppression Olympics circles. And I don't see it as "white feminism" when women assert the source of their oppression is their female biology.

@Tells

I never know whether to laugh or to cry at that one.

Thank you women for your kind remarks.

I hadn't thought of that a simple (and cheaper) felt tip pen so that's a great suggestion. I kept thinking that I don't want it to look accidental so dye it would have to be but that may well work. The trousers are cotton denim and they've already been damaged blue ink so the slattern look is already achieved. :D

I'd have loved to have heard Crenshaw live and in the flesh. I'm feeling very envious. :)

@LangCleg
I too have come to view the words "white feminism/ist" as unfair in too many instances because I have cringed too often at how it's used in places like Everyday Feminism.

This is not to say I don't feel exasperated with white women a lot and some of those are indeed feminists but I know that it's not their fault.
One of the things I learned from being in this Earth for 42 years is that racism is ubiquitous. It was in my within my own mixed race house as I grew up. You should hear my mum and my aunties, effectively grading the younger generations according to skin hue and nappiness of hair a few years ago. Some of them grew out of this kind of talk in time and with a little consciousness raising in their careers, with raising the next generations and listening to them, with music, with songs, but I still heard from my own dad's mouth about the now Portuguese prime minister were that he was "A bit too black!" for him to support him (yes, you read that right). Racism is that insidious and it requires a lot of soul-searching and mind training and I'm not sure it goes away completely even then. I could tell you more but this has been extensively written about already and the literature is out there.

This is all to say that even if I facepalm, curse and complain about white women in my intimate or with close friends (which I do), it's from a place of frustration and not blame and more woc than the media would have us all believe feel more or less the same way.

Crucially, this is exactly one of the reasons I don't like many of the undertones of lib feminism. It nitpicks and pits woman against woman without providing solutions or even suggestions to their problems and improving their lives. Quite the opposite, it seeks to give women a fake sense of control over their lives usually by making them agents in their own exploitation and when that doesn't work it doesn't try to find other ways. Well at least that the only way I can see its various stances on porn, prostitution and the like... but then I'm a socialist as well as a feminist so I'd see it that way.

In any case, I'd say woc forgive a lot more than they snap at white women. It sometimes gets tricky because everyone has hearts and they get wounded but conflict is not all bad and sometimes it's needed. I think women are stronger in handling it than they give themselves credit for.

... and what would conflict free feminism be good for anyway?

I share in the optimism in @Triliteration's post I hope this isn't misplaced but I sense that a big wave could reach our shores if we all keep at it. I hope it's more second wave than the yada that post-modern yada that has been used to keep us in check and not just women or feminists. It needs to happen because it is still the case that what happens in the certain key countries informs a lot of what happens elsewhere and some places are still fighting esentialist concepts like menstrual curse

Learning what's been happening has woken me up and not just to the persistence of woman centered feminism (I really thought it was dead here) but to a pernicious form of authoritarianism that should get the men worried too but it hasn't really affected them... yet.

the frequency with which TIMs try to conflate the struggles of women of colour with their own struggles.

Yes. If black women are women then trans women are also women. Are you saying that black women are not women? You racist.

That sort of thing.

But everyone WASN'T covered - black women weren't covered because firms could get away with employing black people (who were all men) and women (who were all white). So black women had no legal recourse.

I’m relatively new to these boards and relatively new to feminism. I am white and middle aged and reading intently and trying to learn. This thread is a whole new level of education to me. Thanks for delurking OP.

One thing that has crossed my mind, watching the trans debate raging on Twitter has been the frequency with which TIMs try to conflate the struggles of women of colour with their own struggles. I have seen women from all different backgrounds fighting together and defending one another as fellow women, regardless of race or sexual orientation. And I have felt that was a wonderful thing.

If a woman of colour tells me I am failing to understand something important about intersectional feminism due to white privilege then I will listen and do my best to learn.

That and what Lang
I probably wasn’t clear in a previous post but I think the issue is that you can’t separate racism and misogyny in what is the experience of WOC.
In effect, to come back to what a PP was saying, in this case, it’s not about 1+1 or
1
+
1
But actually it’s about a 4 or a 10, aka something completely different, even if it has some ressemblance with other things.

Some fantastic posts on this thread, which have made for illuminating reading. Thanks, all.

I'm in agreement with those saying that the point of Crenshaw's work is that black women cannot separate race and gender when analysing their oppression. Crenshaw's study of workplace discrimination illustrates this - society was going about congratulating itself because it had legislated for both workplace discrimination regarding sex AND race, so everyone was covered, right? Congratulations all round. But everyone WASN'T covered - black women weren't covered because firms could get away with employing black people (who were all men) and women (who were all white). So black women had no legal recourse.

And the problem leading to "white feminism" (and indeed, "men's anti-racism) is that activist feminist circles ask black women to prioritise gender over race while activist anti-racist circles ask black women to prioritise race over gender. But black women can't do either of those things because, for them, race and gender combine to form their oppression.

What I will add about "white feminism" is to beware of its use in the pomo or social constructionist or pro-trans SJW circles. Like all other potentially useful terms, it's been turned on its head so that it ends up useless. I have seen these people use "white feminist" as a term of abuse against several black women for being gender critical. I've even seen it used against anti-FGM campaigner Hibo Wardere, for heavens sakes. If you see "white feminism" used in this way online, just ignore it. It doesn't mean anything useful at all.

Brilliant post Mocha. A resounding YES to terrible distortions of Crenshaw. Love the idea of dying your trousers, I might steal that, if I may?

Side note. I am white. I was lucky enough to meet Crenshaw and hear her speak at WOW at Southbank centre a couple of years ago. I'm ashamed to say I hadn't heard of her but I had heard of "intersectionality" as the TRA understand it. I was blown away by her talk, it made so much more sense than the libfem notion!

I've often worked with groups of British black women in community settings and sometimes found it difficult to know what my position was in the group and to act appropriately as a feminist. Crenshaw's ideas are really helpful to me in terms of race, class, sexuality and (dis)ability. However, what has been most helpful in my understanding of race is the experience of being the only white face in a group, which I've had many times. There's nothing like it to make you aware of your own whiteness, in every sense.

I hate the term white feminist, I think it is used very unfairly, too often. Few feminists who work at grass roots level deserve this slur.

Thanks for delurking mocha and what a lovely post
Trousers idea is great. I'd be tempted to let a red or burgundy felt tip bleed into the crotch of the trousers for a few hours

@MagnificentDelurker

Thanks for writing this. I've been lurking here since around early January when other women suggested my #peaktransing education may be furthered from reading comments here.

I didn't find your OP incoherent but I'm of Angolan born and Portugal raised so I instinctively knew exactly what you meant...

If I had written it I may have replaced white feminism with "some white feminists" instead. This is because I was already aware of the use of the expression "white feminism" usually by men to silence women.

Mary Beard's comments on the Oxfam scandal sprang to my mind as I continued to read your rant and Hillary Clinton's and Stella Creasy's were the faces I pictured when you alluded to western wars (of "liberation" ).

Above all, your rant reminded me of the whole tradition and legacy of feminisms of women of colour from around the world which too often go ignored, unacknowledged and not consulted when defining policy despite their huge contribution to a lot of women's lives.

I found hard to read the first reactions but I wasn't surprised to see them (I guess that goes with not being white). Nevertheless, I re-read your opening post twice to check my own bias... and as I did, I remembered that the Combahee River Collective, which celebrated 40 years last year since their mission statement was published, was a black lesbian women's response to their struggles not being addressed and their commitment to addressing the difficulties of people oppressed simultaneously by race, class and sex precisely because their voices were dismissed. In their statement they said: "It was our experience and disillusionment within these liberation movements, as well as experience on the periphery of the white male left, that led to the need to develop a politics that was anti-racist, unlike those of white women, and anti-sexist, unlike those of Black and white men.".

I remembered , by a black woman who was born in the 1790s, when I read your surprise at being suspected of being a man.

I attended my first Woman's Place meeting two nights ago and this is the first time I'm posting. I'll piggyback on your thread to add my thanks to Mumsnet feminists for helping me dissect and analyse something I wasn't even aware was happening in until, in mid December, a friend gave me the jolt I needed to start digging. Oh and Rebecca Reilly-Cooper. By the time I got here I'd already become as exasperated as to get a t-shirt printed "TERF and f...ing proud" but I've never actually done it (too chicken). However I was especially glad to see Mumsnet's support of the Labour AWS crowdfund.

I've also thought of dyeing my white trousers crotch area with a blood red and wear them to this month's march instead (suggestions on what brand dye and colour reference more than welcome). As a peaceful response to gross distortions of Crenshaw's intersectionality, I think they may well be what the W.I.T.C.H ordered.

I thought your post was very interesting OP. To be frank, I've got somewhat bored with FWR in the last month or so because I've felt that instead of being a place where ideas are explored it has become a place where solidarity is frequently enforced and dissenters and those who ask questions that might trigger dissent are often shut down. I think many are feeling marginalised and threatened and there is a sense that we need to build a 'tribe' in a haven against a heartless world.

So, having said all that I take the point that feminism originated in the Western, developed, nominally Christian world and I agree that some of its core precepts reflect these origins. However, I don't understand what makes it 'white' as such. I was wondering if you could explain your choice of this term OP?

So I should just put up and shut up with Tells responding to me as if I'm thick simply because I offered a different perspective

Sigh. I was explaining how she meant it. Because you seemed to think it was a literal criticism explanation of the hierarchy of oppression and took great offence. When it meant 'as well as'. Simples.

So I should just put up and shut up with Tells responding to me as if I'm thick simply because I offered a different perspective on another posters opinion? She's allowed to be rude and patronising but I'm not allowed to express that I don't appreciate it? Ok then.
No, indeed. By all means make a few more posts repeating how hard done by you are over a misunderstanding. Someone might have missed it.

So I should just put up and shut up with Tells responding to me as if I'm thick simply because I offered a different perspective on another posters opinion? She's allowed to be rude and patronising but I'm not allowed to express that I don't appreciate it? Ok then.

Ifnot Nah, not at all. Just feels like you're damned if you do and damn if you dont as far as responding to threads on MN is concerned. Even when you're perfectly reasonable and measurable in your response, sombody has to respond with snark. Was just saying that in my experience based on where I live (not in the uk) and who I have around me, WOC don't generally have the luxury of dealing with the two entities separately because the experience of womanhood is directly wrapped up in race for them which essentially is what your point was. I was just saying that I have often heard variations of the wording you used to deny that the correlation for WOC of colour exists and they are told that their issue is either a race issue or a womanhood issue and when they have tried to express that their experience of oppression as far as being a woman is concerned is different, that perspective has been invalidated because often people who haven't had to be faced with race issues haven't understood that.
I wasn't disputing your post and I was offended by it, was quite happy to have you clarify what you meant by it. Just don't appreciate being snarled at because I dared to speak on something I'd observed.

Women of colour face racism, working class women often face poverty, but these are ON TOP of sexism and misogyny.

For a lot of WOC is isn’t “on top” though.

I think the way of thinking about this that makes sense to me is to think about older women by analogy. They experience ageism and sexism, but the nature of the ageism that they face can be different from older men and the nature of the sexism that they face can be different from younger women. For example, a younger women might be called a “slut” or some other sexual term when someone wants to demean her, whereas an older woman might be more likely to be called “a stupid old cow” as a go-to insult. If you wanted to campaign against sexist insults it would be best to think about the full range of insults a woman will experience throughout her life.

There are also times when looking at things through a single “ism” (for want of a better word) is ineffective. For example, there are barely any older women presenting the news, but broadcasters can point to older men and young women and claim not to have any problems with ageism and sexism.

Whilst I can’t claim to fully understand the experiences of women of colour, as I am not one and unfortunately don’t know many, I am always interested to listen and learn about others experiences. I am, however, thoroughly sick of:

• brocialists using the term “white feminism” as a put down,
• people telling feminists that they shouldn’t focus on women’s issues,
• people using “intersectionalism” to mean “you have to agree with me and support whomever I have decided is being oppressed” and
• Munro Bergdorf who, not being a woman of colour, is in no better position to lecture on this subject than I am as a white woman.

The first post

Not the good night one

Though i wouldn't argue with that one either