Let's Talk about White Feminism

I was thinking of starting a thread about the fact that I’ve often seen “feminism is intersectional or it is bullshit” but never “anti-racism is intersectional or it is bullshit”. And for me that says that they believe racism important enough to campaign against without having to think about women’s specific needs. But women’s rights are only a bit important, not a ‘real’ oppression like race.

I understand why people are touchy, but the OP read just fine to me, and as a feminist who is also white thought it had some good points which Timbuktu expands on really well. I've almost certainly benefitted myself from exploitation of both working class British people and people in the imperial colonies and I'm OK with acknowledging that some of my forebears probably did awful things, and that it's OK for the people affected to be pretty angry about that.

I live in Canada now and we have a problem here with moving on from how our country and some of our people have and all too often still do see First Nations as other and treated/treat them at times as pretty much sub human. As fellow women and feminists some battles we share and some are different and that's OK. Generally I see men and their allies trying to create false divides in order to perpetuate the fantasy of 'different types of women' as well as to find way to denigrate and defang feminists. I think those are the people we should be saying 'fuck off' to.

I'm so glad more people have come on who also find the op coherent and interesting.

Of course, hers is only one person's point of view, but welcome all the same.

100% agree with Timbuktu's post. Very well written.

I didn't find the op incoherent. And I didn't find it offensive either - genuinely surprised some posters did.
Me neither. I don’t understand why people are accusing you of being a man OP.
I think it’s great that you think feminism is such a positive movement for change.
You don’t have to agree with every part of it. It’s fine to say you like wearing the Hijab. I know many women who do and do not feel in the least oppressed by it. It’s an interesting topic of feminist debate.
You are welcome here.

Another here who found it coherent and not offensive at all - OP was saying that women fighting against oppression often open the door to other women, that feminism isn’t free from racism because no part of society is, and we can have disagreements, but a blanket silencing of women ‘because white feminism’ is not helpful.

I don't understand why people are reacting badly to the OP. It makes sense to me (as a white, middle class feminist). Like it or not there is a historic problem of woc feeling like white feminists don't understand their problems. Sisteroutrider on twitter has helped me to understand this much more. I'm also reading Audre Lorde at the moment who talks about this.

The op made it clear she dislikes the way 'white feminism' is used to silence women. It doesn't mean sometimes white feminists aren't inadvertently racist. See Mary Beard on the Haiti 'civilisation' debacle. She doesn't deserve to be threatened and harrassed for what she wrote. But I wouldn't defend her either as the tweet was racist.

Jesus Maloney! What’s with some of the responses?!

OP please don’t be discouraged at the responses to your delurking. I for one really appreciate your post.

Lots of people use “white feminism” as an insult, either to shut down feminist debate all together or to virtue signal. And I’m always because tbh we’re damned if we do, damned if we don’t.

If we advocate for ourselves we’re pulled up on ignoring greater issues such as FGM. If we advocate for others we are being colonial and applying western values.

So I really appreciate your “rant”. Thanks for writing it.

I went to bed after reading and commenting on a decent post - at last a woman of colour is not berating me for being white and feminist! I thought the OP was absolutely fine. And I wake up to all this vitriol.

I've always felt uncomfortable about people wanting to ban hijab - I think it has to come from within. It's not my business, however much I may want it to be. If Muslim sisters ask for my support I'll give it.

I didn't find the op incoherent. And I didn't find it offensive either - genuinely surprised some posters did.

I think feminism can be too easily dismissed by some as the preoccupations of a bunch of white middle class women. I don't often stop to look at the bigger picture.

I think there are specific areas in which rad fem ideals and intersectionality can come into conflict and I think that feminists of all colours and backgrounds can do more to listen to each other's points of view even if they disagree. There can be a strain of cultural imperialism in how those in the 'west' view the developing world and we have to be alert to that.

The hijab issue is one. I follow a rad fem analysis of the hijab and therefore in an ideal world Muslim women would choose not to wear it. However I would strongly oppose any legal enforcement of this, as has happened in France for example, as I don't feel that it is in the best interests of women and girls and At the end of the day it is just another way of policing what women wear,do and think.

FGM is another issue that I think where the wrong approach and not understanding cultural issues can cause more harm. If you look at the history of British rule in Kenya after FGM was abolished by the British it became seen as a symbol of resistance to colonial control and girls started operating on each other. Obviously FGM is abhorrent and should be abolished but an inappropriate approach from outsiders to a marginalised group can have the opposite affect and retrench the behaviour as part of the culture.

Current local led efforts in different parts of Africa have focused on peer education, introducing ritual ceremonies to replace cutting and retraining traditional practitioners in other skills so they will not lose their livelihoods. Solutions that grow from within communities are likely to be more effective long term.

White feminists have the power to bring global attention to support issues but in order to be effective for all women and girls I do think it is really important to understand their different situations and beliefs and not just storm in with a white saviour approach. It doesn't mean we should stop trying either though.

Can you give some examples of where you feel feminists have been racist, op? I don't really remember any specific 'free the women' rhetoric about any recent operations (Afghanistan included) - there was much more focus on drugs and the potential of WMD. I'm interested in how you perceive white feminism. (The majority of feminists I know try very hard to be exactly the opposite, with intersectionality practically mandatory without being burned at the stake, so it would be useful to know how 'we' (speaking as a white feminist) are getting it so wrong.

Hipster, I'd fight for ya. Whether you wanted me to or not. Which is apparently the problem Is it an infantilisation thing op? Is that what irks you?

I do see the conundrum. White feminists are literally condemned when they are not intersectional concerning race. And yet I absolutely see the desire to say 'you don't speak for me, shut up. I can speak for myself.' As someone up thread said, as a white feminist, you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. It's a real tactic that is absolutely used to shut white feminists up (for both fighting on behalf of all women, and for not doing so).

Any ideas how a feminist who happens to be white can fix that, op? In terms of activism, it's a real problem to be told you must speak, and equally vehemently, that you may not speak at all.

Fwiw, I think the issues of advocacy with good intentions in this regard are not limited to race. It would be interesting to know where the line between unconditional support ends and unwanted advocacy begins. It might shut up some of the critics who just want white women to know their place (seen, preferably in something skimpy if you are under 25, and not heard).

None of us come to feminism as a result of our skin colour, we come to it as a result of the way we are treated in male society and that differs based on the male society around us. We then learn more about other women's experiences as we look beyond our immediate environment and learn, we may land on the right or the wrong side of the debate, but the debate moves and shifts so we can all get caught out occasionally as we learn. The world is not a monoculture. But it is two sexes. One male and one female. Feminism is about females. That is not annoying.

I think when different people think "white feminism" it means different things.
I call the mostly white women who have parlayed their sex positive feminism into a job with a news organization commercial feminists.

The MRAs mean to use the idea as a divide and conquer strategy just as the transgender advocates are now doing.
Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women. All women. Even the ones who do not like us very much.

OP has essentially written a defense of so-called 'white feminism', as a response to the silencing, belittling bullshit that gets thrown at white women (or gender critical women, because somehow the TRAs have appropriated the concept of intersectionality) . Within her defense of 'white feminism' she very reasonably acknowledges that racism is a real problem in feminism, in as much as it is in society in general.

What exactly is your problem., Assigned and hipster. What have you taken such great offense to?

Maybe I'm really naive but I believe a woman wrote it

I don't see what has caused AssignedPurrfect to decide the poster is a man.

Whatever manner of crap was in the OP, noone believes a woman wrote it.

Maybe I'm really naive but I believe a woman wrote it. I genuinely don't understand what was so objectionable about what she said either.

I get you OP - no idea why you’re being snarked at...

Magnificent your rant seems perfectly reasonable to me. I really don't know why some posters have reacted the way they have, unless there is some huge back story in unaware of.

You basically said white feminists have done some great stuff fighting for equality, which has spread to other cultures as well. Yay, good for feminism! Then you said that some campaigns have been ill-thought-out because the people they are supposed to have been for/about haven't been listened to. Which seems a very reasonable thing to moan about. I'm not aware of the campaigns you were talking about, but there are quite a lot of campaigns I'm not aware of.

JellySlice Exactly, it seems obvious to me that the women who achieve some independence and autonomy first are going to be the first to speak out.

Seems a perfectly reasonable rant to me.

It has never occurred to me to resent 'white feminism' for not necessarily representing my particular minority. I take for granted freedoms and rights which I have as a consequence of 'white' feminism affecting everyone.

If my particular minority have an issue to fight for, whether feminist or otherwise, I would expect us to initiate the campaign and look for outside support. I doubt 'white' feminists would say "Nothing to do with us. Won't someone consider the white women?". I would be astonished if 'white' feminists did not support a 'non-white' feminist issue, just because it did not directly affect them.

MagnificentDelurker, thank you for your posts!

I really have to go to bed now, because I have work tomorrow.

But it's been good talking with you and others!

I wish you well!