Let's Talk about White Feminism

@Palavra your posts have been really great!

Ok, I think I probably overreacted and for that I apoloogise.

I still struggle with the point the OP is making but my interpretation of it wasn't right.

The whole white feminism issue is a sentitive one for me, and tbh, it has been brought up by more than one GF MRA types who troll these boards late at night.

Sorry OP. It was late and I got it wrong

I understand that if you are white then that has influenced your feminism. However I reject a 'white feminism' because white is the default in the West, and therefore there is no distinct 'white feminism' because feminist camapigns have long included women of all backgrounds. Has anyone said 'my feminism is for the white people'? If they did I would regard them as white supremacists.

So I see the term as a clear pejorative. There is no doctrine of white feminism. There are feminists who are white for whom being white has formed their views.

I also recently really struggled with the 'check your privilege' thing when exposed to it by babywearing automatons. I really tried hard to understand it, and understand why all these (white) women were making emotional public statements handwringing about how they had just realised their privilege. It was kind of ghastly. Especially when I realised it was, oh that. The idea that white people have benefited from dispossession. Well, I've been aware of that and being an activist over it since I became an adult. My thesis was based on the concept. It's just using a different language, and using it in a nasty cultish way that divides women.

I’m completely prepared to accept that I’m unconsciously prejudiced. Isn’t that a large part of what ‘privilege’ is? I probably wouldn’t have seen it without looking at feminism more closely though, in particular how men don’t fully get it, because they don’t fully live it.

I’ll admit to reading the first few posts repeatedly too - struggling to understand why pp I normally completely agree with reacted as they did. I’m still wondering if I missed something because I don’t get it.

If any are around and would like to explain, I’d love to know.

With that said feminism is above all something for women. It has to include all women for that to be the case. But I have seen largely enormous amounts of solidarity and I think feminists are often trailblazers of inclusion. Discussions of class, race, ethnicity etc are central to women’s lives and thus to their feminism and I do wish people would recognise that kust because they haven’t had to confront their race doesn’t mean they aren’t influenced by it significantly. White feminism shouldn’t be a pejorative at all, but the term is important because if you are white your feminism is influenced by that. My experience of feminism has been affected by a number of things such as culture, religion, geography, being raised in a loving and supportive home, etc and all of that is important to the acknowledge. My POV as a woc from London in a progressive family is different to that of a white woman in Preston, or in Belfast etc and I don’t have a full understanding of their needs, priorities and experiences as women either. I love thztbzt lectures and in books I have read I can learn about the many different experiences of being women and feminism, but acknowledging how race influences those different experiences is important.

I'm also baffled by the strength of the negative responses such as saying the OP is a man and repeatedly telling them to fuck off.

I realise the "white feminism" is used as a stick to beat women, but I'm not convinced at all that the OP was using it that way. To me it looks like they were saying that if we acknowledge this used term exists, we can see positives in it.

I'm also bemused that we should never say that a feminist can be a racist. All types of people can be racists.

Of course we each have our own blind spots, as a result of our own privilege. The intelligent, the attractive, the healthy- we all make assumptions and are inclined to overlook our own prejudice.

I think a few of the phrases OP has used have lit the blue touch paper, so to speak, and distracted people from what she is actually saying. People have read into her post things which I do not think are there.

I thought that was the OP's point, though! Too many people dismissing the views of 'white feminists' as if their whiteness makes their other views irrelevant, whereas I thought the OP was saying that white women's efforts can pave the way for all women, even if some of them 'transgress' (weird word) in other ways.

Someone using the phrase identity politics in a discussion about race is a very easy way to find someone who’s never had to consider the effect of race on their life. We lived in a racialised society. The fact many white people in the UK do not have to consider what their whiteness means does not mean they are not constantly engaged in that society, nor that their whiteness is a part of their identity or their politics. That doesn’t mean racism at all (although sometimes it can) - just that the experience of being white, black, Asian etc is important to our lives. I have been repeatedly asked ‘what are you?’ and my experience as a mixed Sephardi Jewish woman who is not identified as white by most people (various people have asked if I’m middle eastern, Arab, North African, Turkish, Roma and once Iranian) has had an important impact on my feminism.

For example, I have seen some discussions of the Bible and sexism in the Bible coming from a purely Christian centric viewpoint. I have seen some people who dismiss intersectionality. I have seen some people talk about clothing choices, notions of modesty etc without understanding the cultural place of modesty for men and women, or without casting a critical eye over their own understanding of modesty (which for most women exists in the U.K).

Racism affects women in a number of women specific ways. Some women may be sexualised/fetishised as a result. Others may have little representation which is not addressed - for example, it is important that there are black women role models in STEM, not just women and not just black men.

The priorities may also be different. I am in a disadvantaged area but with a lot of immigrants and diversity. Things like trans stuff is simply not a priority where I am but that depends on the area and community. Some people are transphobic for religious reasons. But most people I know are outwardly accepting. I would suggest that perhaps many women from the white middle class have not had to critically question their identity to the same degree as poc.

I’ve seen a lot of radical feminists talking about breaking out of the system, women’s liberation etc which I support. However often people may only understand the system and patriarchy from their POV as white middle class feminists.

Fair enough I may have misinterpreted as I'm reading when breastfeeding and tending a fretful baby, and musing when doing housework. But I do feel some of my points stand. There is no "white feminism", or there wasn't in my active days. Women identified by ideology. This racial boundary stuff is bullshit and i've seen too many narcissists capitalising on their entitlement to speak over others, and telling Jewish women they have white privilege etc.

@TallulahWaitingInTheRain "Some of the responses remind me of the NAMALTing that arises when we try to explain male privilege to men."

I agree! I'm finding this thread really eye-opening and have completely lost respect for at least one regular poster who I previously thought was pretty sensible.

And for all of you saying things like "I resent being told I can't have an opinion on the hijab", she is NOT saying that. Clearly, people who have direct experience of certain things will have better-informed opinions on them. That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion yourself, just that you should acknowledge the limitations of your own experience and not talk over people who are better placed to understand certain issues. It's exactly the same thing we say to men: they are certainly "allowed" to have opinions on feminism, but hopefully we all agree that women's opinions will be more valuable here.

Also note that OP never said she thought the hijab was feminist, as far as I can see. In fact she has said she doesn't wear it herself. Some of you are just reading the word "Muslim" and jumping to conclusions that say far more about you than they do about the OP.

Great to see you've come back Magnificent. I'll look forward to reading your after work posts.

Must admit I'm not getting the reason for the snarky responses either. I'm surprised, given that the posters it's coming from usually seem to be making reasonable points.

Anyone like to explain?

I don't think the op is about identity politics. OP is saying that our shared class interests as women are central to feminism. She is expressing solidarity with white feminists despite the fact that our class interests diverge along other axes of oppression. I find this both coherent and magnanimous.

I can only assume that pps have taken umbrage at the very mention of racism given that OP accused no-one here. Some of the responses remind me of the NAMALTing that arises when we try to explain male privilege to men.

For me, it's about realising that "white" feminism may have different priorities. If WOC feminism is to be taken seriously, then white feminists with power and influence should be sharing that by inviting, supporting, mentoring WOC to also take the stage to make their own cases for what they need. This is important especially given POC communities may face structural inequalities that some white feminists may not. I agree it does get used to shut people up, but in an ideal world it would be about having more voices.

Oh and I don't respect your religion either. I think its a load of old cobblers (like all religions). Obviously I respect your right to practice it but I don't respect it.

'White women' are being told they have to bend over backwards to genuflect over these nasty patriarchal religions.

God I hate identity politics. It's poison. Why are we defined by, and separated by WHO we are not our IDEOLOGY?

It's so fucking anti-intellectual.

I think some interesting points have been made by OP. It's interesting to see how 'white women' are seen as an amorphous mass from the outside. However Hollywood women's struggles have as little to do with me as they do with you.

I also resent being told what I can and can't have an opinion on. What I'm 'allowed' to believe in. This is identity politics and it's bullshit. Identity politics is neoliberalism in disguise and actively prevents international solidarity.

I believe in internationalism, the idea of the "Brotherhood of Man" (obviously that's an outdated way of expressing it) that was part of the idealist left movements of the 20th Century.

I will not refrain from having an opinion about the hijab. I will not view 'Muslim women' as a single entity (much as you seem to lump me with Hollywood). The political spectrum is varied and I will pick and choose which Muslim women I agree with. I happen to agree with the ones who say the hijab is bad.

My Irish grandmother put a scarf on her head every time she went outdoors so you do not have a monopoly on views about scarves on the head. It's part of my culture too. A part of my culture that we don't do anymore, just as we don't cover our ankles and wrists lest we be viewed as promiscuous or whatever.

I don't believe in cultural relativism when it comes to women's rights. To me, women's liberation crosses cultural and ethnic boundaries.

Hey magnificent

I got a bit confused by your post so gave up

But that is definitely more me then you

If lights is right then i am fully supportive of your post

I would say that assigned and the others are usually pretty spot on, so they may well be getting a feeling that you definitely didnt intend to put over...but i find thats incredibly easy to do on an online forum

OP I'm also a bit confused about some of the responses here. I have found your rant really refreshing. Thanks for posting. Maybe some people are defensive because the phrase "white feminist" does get thrown around a lot pejoratively. I'm a bit tired of it myself because it is pretty unfair representation of what I've experienced of feminism in the UK, which imo goes to great efforts to listen to all sorts of voices. I've never been in a feminism lecture, for example, which hasn't included a large number of bame women's writings.

I hope the few responses you have had that seem a bit bad tempered don't put you off. Please come back and discuss. Especially hijab, which I think it a really interesting cultural phenomenon in the UK. I'm white. I grew up near one of the cities which became a major centre for immigration from India and Pakistan in the 1970s. I grew up alongside proper racists, members of the BNP and NF etc. I was a bit bewildered by them if I'm honest. I was quite excited to meet people from different backgrounds and countries, though I accept that in itself is quite othering, but I didn't feel animosity anyway, and never have.

What I find interesting about the hijab, which I don't agree women should wear but would not support a ban, is that it is so new and so popular among young women from muslim backgrounds. Also that there are so many different styles of headscarf, many of which are clearly not meant to be modest but to make a statement (fashion, rebellion, identity, FU to western culture, whatever) This aspect of hijab I like because who can't support a rebel? However I'm also a big fan of My Stealthy Freedom, which is obviously the opposite of embracing hijab as choice. What I don't like is being asked to agree that hijab is feminist. You can have your own thoughts on this and I can have mine. We don't need to agree to be fellow feminists because some problems are so complex there will be endless discussion around them. What I will say though is that I am equally against any other form of restrictive dress that women are expected to wear that men are not. Even if it is just more time spent getting dressed for the street - putting on make up for example - because men get to take advantage of that extra time to learn to play the guitar, or study, or play video games. I'm also an atheist. I don't think the hijab as worn by a lot of young women near me is always a sign of religious piety but I would be against religious rules of any sort, from any religion.

All of this is compatible with an understanding that Black British women have a different experience and set of problems from me. As do African American women, Muslim women, Native women, all women in the global south, Jewish women, etc. and within these groups many divisions and differences. To me this is what intersectional feminism means. It's not all about the trans but about class, race, poverty, colour, culture.

I too found it an interesting post. Thank you OP.

@MagnificentDelurker I would just like to add to the voices above who said they appreciate your post. I thought it made a lot of sense. I also found your short post on another thread about viewing women as magical in childhood to be really lovely (and quite poetic!).

I would understand if you've been put off by the response you've received, but personally I hope you stick around as I would like to read a lot more from you and a lot less from posters such as @AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth, @hipsterfun and @TellsEveryoneRealFacts. I can't believe one of them told you to fuck off! Utterly ridiculous response. And all this "well if I'm NOT ALLOWED to save you from wearing a hijab you can forget about my support! Can't get ANYTHING RIGHT!" stuff would be hilarious, if it weren't so depressing.

For those of you who have responded with vitriol (of a level I've rarely seen here) to this perfectly reasonable, and indeed insightful, post, I would ask that you please seriously reflect upon why. But instead I'm sure you'll just continue to be massively defensive.