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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's Talk about White Feminism

342 replies

MagnificentDelurker · 27/02/2018 21:40

This is going to take a bit long but please bear with me. I feel like an intruder as I have actively been avoiding feminism and specially the white kind all my life. Kinda like putting my hand in my ears and saying la la ... So I feel a bit of an imposter to come and talk about white feminism with some supposed sagacity but here it goes:

First a bit of background: I am an immigrant to UK from a deeply religious and Muslim country. I have been as gender non conforming as you could get in country with mandatory hijab laws. I have argued for women's right as much as I could but still I would never call myself feminist. So it was a delight to discover mumsnet and read writing of so many fiercely intelligent women.

So seeing so many of my sisters getting attacked for supposedly white feminism I had to rant somewhere. I have met many feminist who have been overtly/ inadvertantly racist. Probably not more so than general population but again that is not the point.

Feminism is a women's right movement. Feminist cannot be expected to fight everyone's battle for them. Feminists are humans like most, we (humans) are capable of detailed analysis of situations that are close to our own experience but generally would fill the rest with background noise or stereotypes. We might know in detail how subtle but effective sexism works but at the same time completely black out the experience of being working class man. This is just human.

However, this does not invalidate the experience of a white middle class woman. The suppression is real and she has every right to fight for herself. Her fight has also benefitted me as a muslim women growing up in a different era and a different country. Because women fought for vote, it meant that I did not have to. We were given the right to vote because it became a norm in most countries. I did not have to fight for right to education either. I was automatically educated, again it became the norm. I was albeit begrudgingly admitted to university, was even allowed to choose typically male subject (engineering). In fact, the ratio of women to men in my university (predominately a STEM university) was no different to say US (where I travelled for post graduate studies ) . I am happy that I did not have to fight these battles and I thank (white) feminists for it, even if some were racists. We have our own battles, from fighting mandatory hijab to street harassment, to unfair divorce laws. I am mightily glad that we do not have to fight from square one.

Yes there are times that what is called as white feminism can transgress. But those are not the times when white women are fighting for rights that might only affect a subset of women they belong to in short term. They transgress when they advocate to invade my birth country to free the women. They transgress (in my opinion and I understand that many disagree) when they advocate for banning hijab and hence taking agency away from muslim women. They transgress when they they simplify the experiences of my life as a muslim woman to just being a victim.

None of the above applies in this fight for women's spaces. And I feel very included that these women fight not for banning of my hijab but for spaces that I can feel comfortable taking my hijab (not me specifically as I don't wear hijab but you get my point).

Finally, among marginalised people sometimes those with more power are the only ones with a voice and that does not mean they should not use it.

It is a bit incoherent but just wanted to say you go girl to all of you (and rant a bit)

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TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 21/03/2018 07:47

I lost my words here as I watched the car crash (twice) above. It was a mix of rage and sadness and profound anguish that did it

I want to acknowledge this. And say, I'm listening and many others here are too. I can see how that completely fails to negate the impact of all the crap Flowers

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 21/03/2018 07:41

Perhaps I've just shot my chances of "integration" on Mumsnet

Please don't integrate! Or vanish! Just keep telling us what you think .. if and when you feel like it

HairyBallTheorem · 21/03/2018 07:35

Thanks Mocha. What a remarkable woman. I am always humbled by the bravery of people who can stand up to the establishment like that.

RealityHasALiberalBias · 21/03/2018 04:50

Mocha you are one of the contributors to this thread that made it worth reading - please stick around! I would love to read more of your thoughts.

MochaSoul · 21/03/2018 02:07

Thanks @HairyBallTheorem

Here's one in English. The picture shows her wearing a t-shirt with a call to women: "Diverse but not dispersed" (as in scattered)

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/16/the-guardian-view-on-the-of-brazilian-politicians-marielle-francos-legacy

HairyBallTheorem · 20/03/2018 18:26

Mocha I kind of steered clear of this thread when it started because it turned into such a car crash, but I've dipped in and out of it, and found your contributions really interesting - and that article you've linked to is very interesting.

Do you have a link to newspaper reports about the murder you've mentioned? FWIW, Flowers

MochaSoul · 20/03/2018 17:18

@magnificentdelurker

In my internet ganders I came across Claire and I've been a follower of her blog for a while. I revisited this today and thought of this thread. Flowers

She has another post on her blog urging us to enter the conversations and the movement in general and there's another challenge. In the real world a race bomb usually creates a silence, a dismissal, a changing of subject or even the changing of the object of the subject (like the episode of the group of white people who heard the story of a black girl who was sexually abused the captain of the ship and whose silence was broken by the voice of one white man who said "What about the ship's captain?")
We have to have nerves of ice to look in and watch while fights break out (making us feel uncomfortable - what woman likes to be the reason for a fight) and all that follows from those fights such as white women explaining racism to other white women and making one cringe more than we already do at racist attitudes we never quite become inured to.

I lost my words here as I watched the car crash (twice) above. It was a mix of rage and sadness and profound anguish that did it.

Perhaps I've just shot my chances of "integration" on Mumsnet but...
A gobby black woman who spoke my language in my mother tongue was murdered just a few days ago for speaking truth to white imperialist power. Her example emboldens me.
The truth hurts me and I want Mumsnet Towers to hear it.

JenniferJames · 05/03/2018 04:16

I'm pretty sure the OP is the best judge of her treatment and the management of HER thread by six self-appointed MN officials. Maybe next time (if there is a next time) she posts we should ask her? I'll look out for her.

If she had run this particular topic as a fucking EXPERIMENT the results could not have been clearer, let's face it.

picklemepopcorn · 04/03/2018 17:54

Maybe we have a tendency to address what we see as the biggest problem first- the one affecting all women. Then work our way through the issues to the ones affecting quite a lot of people, then a few people, then a small number. That would be all women, then women of colour, then disabled women.

Maybe.

Thinking out loud.

CircleSquareCircleSquare · 04/03/2018 17:04

I think it is very difficult to strike a balance here.
As the louder and more accepted voice, I can see why straight, white, middle class women are asked to advocate for others. But equally I have seen them do that and minorities (POC, LGBT, Disabled - and I speak as someone within two of these brackets) say they have no right to speak for them. It’s a hard balance to please everyone and we as women know we are put here to please everyone, right? Life as a woman feels like I please the first wave of people, I get them safe to the shore and then I turn round and there is another wave of people with completely different needs that I must also please. Be that at home, at work, in society, as a feminist.

I’ve seen a lot of comments on Twitter about the #March4women in London today regarding the fact that white women were talking about their own experiences as women. I struggle to understand why they shouldn’t be afforded space to talk about being women but I also struggle with how little space disabled women, women of colour, working class women are offered.

It’s a battle that no woman is going to get right.

ILoveDolly · 04/03/2018 16:54

Isn't it the responsibility of those who are given a voice - albeit via privilege - to use that voice to further useful progress for all? That's what confuses me about accusations of "white feminism". As the OP says, movements in one place and time pave the way and offer a model or precedent which is a positive thing.
In my previous post I was trying to say that controlling language is not exclusive to white males because the whole identity politics things can be just as controlling. I guess everyone, even these maligned white feminists, could benefit from considering that but it was not sniping at them....

FrancinePefko · 04/03/2018 15:12

The question slightlyglittermaned
Is
When / where have I told anyone to shut up exactly ?

Gwenhwyfar · 04/03/2018 14:53

"In fact all I wanted to rant about was that if there is such a thing as white feminism there is nothing wrong with it even coming from the point of view of a woman with a different background who does get annoyed with “white” feminists. "

Thanks for the summary, because I didn't understand the long post.
I agree with you. It's like when people complain that many suffragettes were upper class. Well, yes, they were, but they were the ones who were able to be so active and thank God that they did.

slightlyglittermaned · 04/03/2018 14:47

Eh, any of the many themes people were trying to discuss that weren't this pissing match. Read back through the thread, there were some interesting topics.

I have not seen you respond to any of those yet. Have you somewhere and I missed it?

FrancinePefko · 04/03/2018 14:31

What?

slightlyglittermaned · 04/03/2018 14:29

By ignoring the conversation?

FrancinePefko · 04/03/2018 14:20

picklemepopcorn

Telling everyone else that they are privileged middle class white feminists and should shut up is undermining your own argument

Hmm

When / where have I told anyone to shut up exactly?

picklemepopcorn · 04/03/2018 13:19

You are misreading the cause of my concern for JJ. It is not her opinions. Everyone is free to express opinions. It is her way of expressing herself here and elsewhere that do not sound like a woman in her position. No one has silenced you, we've asked you to stop silencing us. Telling everyone else that they are privileged middle class white feminists and should shut up is undermining your own argument. There were people here learning from each other. I freely admit to being new to this. I was learning from the other posters. You don't seem to be learning or teaching, frankly. I'm not interested in sparring with you anymore- I'm going to listen to the podcast (at last), and discuss that somewhere.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 04/03/2018 10:49

Here's a clear example of regarding Muslim women as having a hive mind

Er no. Just to be clear I was referring to women plural and issues plural.

ALittleBitOfButter · 04/03/2018 10:43

I wonder how many feminists who don't listen to Muslim women and who really don't understand where they are coming from or what their issues are...
Here's a clear example of regarding Muslim women as having a hive mind.

FrancinePefko · 04/03/2018 10:33

Why don't you post something about the actual topic?

I think I have, haven't I? Middle class, well-educated, white feminists need to be aware of when they demonstrate exactly the same silencing, controlling and exclusionary behaviour that white males in power have been deploying for centuries.

TimbuktuTimbuktu · 04/03/2018 10:25

@FrancinePefko you are just being really annoying now. Why don't you post something about the actual topic?

The thread started really badly but we had redeemed it. You and JJ have just ruined it again. There is nothing productive in rehashing this anymore so please contribute something (anything) to the discussion or just leave it.

To pick up on a recent point- What do you think about how the phrase white feminism has been used recently to describe feminists of colour who are doing feminism 'wrong?'

LangCleg · 04/03/2018 10:05

Happy to be put in my box now though. I will leave the debate to the clever, white middle class feminists.

No, no! Don't be like that! I mean, you've devoted quite a bit of time being angry here - and it's not as though I want you to shut up about the problems strands of feminism have in acknowledging, approaching and incorporating race into a workable feminist praxis.

I'm just saying - the thread had moved on and become helpful. So the way you're going about it is wasting all your knowledge and passion. I'm just saying - help us move the thread forward instead.

Let's get back to Crenshaw and Mary Beard's colonialist language choices!

FrancinePefko · 04/03/2018 09:58

You're not being a hero here. You're just regressing the thread back to a bun fight

Well I am happy to take that on face value although it does come across as "What's your problem?" and whitesplaining

I have RTFT and only challenged when hipsterfun was defending her put downs of the OP.

Happy to be put in my box now though. I will leave the debate to the clever, white middle class feminists.

LangCleg · 04/03/2018 09:51

You seem to be spoiling for a fight - calling people out for their exclusionary and dismissive behaviour is "asking for a fight"?

Francine, I wasn't part of the original argument but came to the thread later, after it had largely righted itself. I think this is what you're missing.

I agree, as others have, the thread got off to a dreadful start. Possibly because of the "white feminism" criticism generally and possibly because FWR has a problem with what Mumsnet terms "ploppers" or "goady fuckers" because it is known as a dreadful hotbed of TERFs.

Because "white feminism", as I pointed out earlier, is becoming a pejorative popular with transactivists used to slur any gender critical woman who does not think TIMs are women (I've seen several black women including Hibo Wardere slurred as white feminists lately), it's not that unlikely a new OP is a plopper or a GF.

Even so, I'm in complete agreement with you that the first part of thread took some ugly turns and that the OP should have been treated with more respect.

But it sorted itself out. Explanations were given. A couple of posters apologised and retracted. The conversation moved on and had become productive, thoughtful and useful for onlookers. The progression of the thread is actually a good example of how conflict can be at least partially resolved through discussion.

You're not being a hero here. You're just regressing the thread back to a bun fight. What is the point of that?