Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

UK exclusive discussion? So the query should have been can women in the UK be both Feminists and pro-life.
I did not realized there was this restriction.

That was in Ireland. Not in the UK. It wouldn't have happened here. So the 'illogical pragmatism' argument still stands. And it really isn't self righteous. That's as much of a judgement as those who talk about 'killing babies'.

Savita Halappanavar. Say her name.
She is an example of what happens when self righteous people pass laws banning abortion. This was a late term pregnancy that should have been aborted and was not. This is the reality of what we are talking about here.

I agree AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth It is an unfair representation of just about every one's position.

the bewilder

"In Ireland a woman died a couple years ago because the doctors agreed with you. Srsly! They let her die rather than abort post viability despite the fact that the fetus was dead. Savita Halappanavar. Say her name."

Sorry but that's a very unfair misrepresentation of my position. There is no need for that

SophoclesTheFox - Where does Prostitution fit in with bodily autonomy?

One big arguments about Prostitution is that it harms ALL women. Even if it doesnt harm the women partaking in said activity.

Many ardent pro-lifers feel the same about abortion. Is there a difference?

You've misunderstood what I mean by "bodily autonomy" - it means deciding what happens in, to and on your body - what goes in it, what comes out of it, who touches it. It doesn't mean "the right to do whatever you want while you are in your body", because that's obviously "everything a human can do". Bodily autonomy means something specific. So no, it is not in the least illogical to be pro choice and anti porn

Full bodily autonomy would be the right to do anything to your body once you are an adult as long as it does not harm any one else. The state intrrvenes to curtail that. The UK has decided that except in certain circumstances you cannot have an abortion after 24 weeks. Other countries including NI have decided you cannot pay to insert a penis into another person.

it means deciding what happens in, to and on your body - what goes in it, what comes out of it, who touches it that covers porn and prostitution. Goodness knows I'm as anti porn/ anti the "sex industry" as you will find but your definition does not stand up.

Thebewilderness

Does any country allow legal abortion to term without a medical reason? Canada was mentioned upthread. They have no time limit because they trust women and their doctors to do what is appropriate

And as pointed out Canadian doctors are self imposing a lower limit than the UK permits where no medical reason is needed.

Feminism is not an identity. It is a political movement for the liberation of women. There is a body of work by women to support and explain this.
I keep saying this and people keep saying no, anyone who says they are a feminist is a feminist even though their policies are anti feminist and they have no clue what the tenets of feminism are.

The trans activists of feminism?

(Sorry)

*But a fully viable baby that is due to be born in a few weeks being killed before the woman gives birth to it or has it cut out of her body, because she would prefer it not to "walk the earth" is not my idea of a great solution either.

OK, then find an example of a situation where this actually happened and we can talk about it.*

That’s not the pont though, is it. Posters on this thread are saying that the only feminist position is to permit abortion up to the day of birth.

Yes, I agree that it’s very unlikely to happen in practice for a healthy foetus, however there clearly are cases where women have concealed births and dispose of the baby, so a small number of women will see very late termination as their only option, and certainly safer than delivering alone.

If there was to be a change in the law these new ethical problems would need to be explored. I don’t understand how telling women to shut up about it is appropriate. Even if some of them are spouting misogynist bollocks.

This is not an anti-choice view.

This ‘high opinion of women’ argument holds zero water. Not many people kill their babies, and most have a ‘reason’. I am not sure legalising infanticide (by women) would demonstrate ‘a high opinion of women’.

I have posted many times on this thread re the illogicality of the ‘logic’ which gets to ‘abortion on demand until term is a feminist position’.

All I will say here is that if most feminists do not believe in it, and that is what all the surveys say (linked to, above) it is not THE feminist position.

If a (generous) 10% of feminists want this to be the feminist position, they are forming a break away group and, sure, they can tell others they cannot join this particular clique. It does become very life of brianesque though.

You can believe what you like but society as a whole make laws, which, again, you can choose to break and take the consequences.

Just to circle back to "bodily autonomy" meaning that feminists who want bodily autonomy must be pro-porn. You've misunderstood what I mean by "bodily autonomy" - it means deciding what happens in, to and on your body - what goes in it, what comes out of it, who touches it. It doesn't mean "the right to do whatever you want while you are in your body", because that's obviously "everything a human can do". Bodily autonomy means something specific. So no, it is not in the least illogical to be pro choice and anti porn.

Interesting that I have been assumed to be pro-abortion to term. Actually, for all you're arguing against me, lass, our opinions are not far apart at all. My own personal opinion is that abortion to term is a matter for a woman and her doctors, but what I campaign for is the current law to stay the same in the UK, and be applied to NI. I would like the necessity to have the two doctor rule removed, but the danger with campaigning for that is that you open up the debate and risk having the situation worsened with the influence of the evangelical anti choicers. So best to leave it as it is.

I dont' spend a great deal of time worrying about women recklessly having late term abortions because it is very, very rare, is almost always for medical reasons, and I agree with the PP (kittens?) that to think women are recklessly aborting at 39 weeks doesn't demonstrate a very high opinion of women at all, which I find sad and troubling.

“t really isn’t that hard to prevent most pregnancies“

Agreed. Which is why most pregnancies don’t end in abortion.

I don’t understand how people can say if your pro life you are anti choice? In most cases surely the woman chose to have sex and also chose to not be using adequate contraception? Birth control is free in the UK and easily accessible. It really isn’t that hard to prevent most pregnancies. To me that is a lot of ‘choice’.

Obviously I am not talking here about cases where the woman was raped etc. But from what I know the number of abortions carried out as a result of rape is very small compared to those carried out for reasons of absent or failed contraception.

if you are to kill this baby, then you should have a very compelling reason to do so.

My reason was: I don't want a child and I don't want to be a mother.

I assuming that's about as compelling a reason as you'll ever get, right? So do I pass? I mean, it's too late now, but did I?

And I've gone on to have two very much wanted babies/children (obviously saw them a few times on ultrasound), 2 miscarriages that upset me incredibly - and yet I don't regret my abortion for a second (I felt nothing but utter relief, and continue to know in my heart that it was the right decision).

Because - the difference between a wanted child and an unwanted pregnancy, is the difference between night and day.

If our innate evil impulses are not controlled women will apparently take to demanding abortions a week before birth is anticipated, cackling "mwah hah hah" as it happens.

I would like to know where all these women are who are casually aborting in the 23 week or the 36th week. I am calling hyperbole on that.

Does any country allow legal abortion to term without a medical reason? Canada was mentioned upthread. They have no time limit because they trust women and their doctors to do what is appropriate.

Do you work for one of those American crisis pregnancy centers that pretend that they offer abortion but instead are fronts designed to bully women out of getting an abortion, Leilaniiii? You sound like you're reading from one of their pamplets.

As a general rule most women are aware what a fetus looks like at various stages. It does not look like a thumb sucking Gerber baby at 8 weeks.

Late term abortions are not something that women have for shits and giggles, or because they just don't want a baby. There's pretty much always a medical reason

Does any country allow legal abortion to term without a medical reason ? In the UK all legal abortions since 1967 after 28 / 24 weeks must have been for medical reasons.

So no , women are not having late abortions for non-medical reasons as there is currently no legal option for them to do so.

It's more a case of being honest about the process so that women really can make INFORMED decisions. Speaking in Latin in order to emotionally disconnect ourselves from the process is a lie. It is amazing how many women don't really understand what has happened until they have further children and see them on ultrasound.

Indeed angrykitten
Thankfully we don't have to actually listen to or take on board this opinion

Compelling reason ffs

What are your compelling reasons that are "good enough" leil

I do not accept Leilaniii as having the moral authority to make my decisions for me, or to decide whether my reasons for having an abortion are sufficiently "compelling".

Part of the problem is that the pregnancy is what is being aborted, whether the fetus is alive or dead or incapable of surviving the birth experience, i e the severing of the placenta. The words matter.
I trust women to make the best decision they can under the circumstances..