Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

"Should he be denied any involvement in influencing whether people like him are aborted?"

It's tough-but no he shouldn't.

Regarding rape and suicide and forced birth via CS. This in Ireland. FOUR years ago.

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/18/ireland-woman-forced-caesarean-pregnant-rape-friend

Regarding suspended sentence via medical abortion, which happened in the UK and Northern Ireland.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-given-suspended-sentence-for-having-abortion-in-the-uk-a6968676.html

Myself. I was living in the North West, England, UK and not allowed a scan nor a referral for an abortion from my GP in 1998. I did not want to suffer a third miscarriage. Albeit 20 years ago, but I don't doubt that this still happens.

@BertrandRussell, you say men shouldn't have a say in the issue- I have a male friend who was almost aborted on medical advice (the doctor thought he had spina bifida which he absolutely does not- he is in perfect health, has studied to PhD level and has a fulfilling life). Should he be denied any involvement in influencing whether people like him are aborted? I do think there are women's issues where men's voices should absolutely be a secondary consideration but is what constitutes a valuable life not a bit more universal than that?

They have Lass - earlier in the thread.

There was this post,for example -

I'm pro-life. I believe a foetus is a human life from the point of conception and therefore only agree with termination in exceptional circumstances (rape, TFMR).

The woman is not being punished for having sex. But nor can she say that the fetus is a parasite that has been forced on her by some external party. She had sex, either didn't use contraceptives or didn't use adequate contraceptives, thus causing the existence of a fetus with the potential for a full life, which by the way is likely developing to resemble her in some ways, because it shares her dna. She is given approx 6 months in which to have the fetus aborted, even if there are no issues such as disability of the fetus, rape or incest.
But some women here say that if she is not offered an abortion in the later stages of her pregnancy, right up to the moment before birth (and in the later stages of pregnancy abortion means literally killing the baby and giving birth to a dead baby) then she is being punished for having sex. They are insisting that the fetus, even shortly before birth, is a nothing, or worse than nothing - a parasite. And that the slightest whim of the woman, leading her not to want the baby alive, matters more than the fetus having the right to live its life.
No-one here is arguing that the life of the fetus is more important than the life of the woman.
Almost no-one is arguing that there should be no right to abortion in the first 6 months of the pregnancy.
If you are saying that you can't be a feminist if you don't believe that a woman should have the absolute right to abort up to birth, regardless of the reason or lack of one, presumably financed by the NHS and with doctors required to do it (very few would agree to do it if not forced to), then I suggest that you don't publicise that belief. There are few enough women who consider themselves to be feminists as it is.

How would all feel if you lived in a country were scans during pregnancy were not given because to do so would impinge on the rights of the foetus?

Or if you were suicidal and denied an abortion and forced to give birth by CS at 25 weeks with the child removed and put into care?

Or that if you did have a miscarriage you may well be subject to a police investigation and be given a suspended sentence or worse jailed?

As usual, the forced birthers are focussing on the vanishingly tiny number of late abortions, when what they actually want to do is deny women access to abortion at any stage. In some cases even including the MAP

As Larry has pointed out that is a straw man of epic proportions; as is this.

Well, I think the simplest forced birth argument is that women should be punished for having sex. This is reinforced by the many forced birthers who are prepared to make an exception for rape

I can't recall anyone on this referring to, and approving of, the rape exception.

Most people are somewhere in between on the issue-
Where you stand on it, does little to reflect how feminist you are.. if you concede that autonomy isn't an absolute

Completely agree. I find the proposition that anyone who doesn't support abortion on demand to term is a "forced birther" pretty insulting. This is a complex issue, people have varied and often conflicting views about it. The law (in E, S and W) as it currently stands rather reflects this.

I agree that the exception for rape is deeply weird.

If you think abortion is an unjustified taking of life then i don't see why circumstances of conception are relevant. We don't allow infanticide on this basis.

Well, I think the simplest forced birth argument is that women should be punished for having sex. This is reinforced by the many forced birthers who are prepared to make an exception for rape.

I think the simplest, most truthful pro- choice argument is that killing sometimes is justifiable... and that those with more rights, power and control should decide on the fate of those with less or no rights, the dependant and the weak.
It's the answer to the question why why it's preferable to terminate instead of giving a live birth when the process is the same in full term infants- because it's the right to kill a person that's dependant.
It's why before abortion, people would use infanticide, throw baby off a cliff, abandon, sacrifice, etc.
In its simplest terms, it's the right to kill someone who is an inconvience, disabled, dependant, weak. It's the right to exert power over another human being because you believe your rights exceed there own.

No because we live in a country where you are not forced to raise a child.

To me the abortion to term case rests on;

1. Because you believe in absolute autonomy. I don't think many people do when it comes down to it. Or they say they do but are then hypocritical in other ways.

1. Because they argue that the foetus is not "alive" or unworthy of any sort of rights. Which to me it's plain that they are alive, it's not mysterious- it's obvious from premature babies, ultrasounds etc.

'As usual, the forced birthers are focussing on the vanishingly tiny number of late abortions, when what they actually want to do is deny women access to abortion at any stage. In some cases even including the MAP.'

Rubbish, the vast majority on here have argued for the current limit to remain and for early abortion to be easy and available.

Evidence for this straw man, please?

If you think women should be obliged to give birth to babies that they are unable or unwilling to look after then you are in favour of forcing them to give birth. It's quite simple. If you can find another term then I am happy to use it. But I will not call use Pro-Life.

Calling someone a forced birther doesn't refute my argument either...

Most people are somewhere in between on the issue-
Where you stand on it, does little to reflect how feminist you are.. if you concede that autonomy isn't an absolute

No don't want to deny women abortion, I haven't said that, but I do think there should be limits- I would reduce the limit to reflect babies can be born alive and survive at 23 weeks
People are divided on where those limits should be and for what reasons.
I don't think the- "cos my autonomy" stacks up, too weak for me for reasons already stated.
Don't think this is a reason to say someone can't be feminist.

Also-and this is one of the very few things I would say this about-I really think men do not have a right to a say on this issue. Obviously they have opinions. But I feel very strongly that this should be a matter for women only.

I don't think it's cherry picking exactly, because I think most people who have an opinion on abortion either way do so from a position of conviction. This is isn't an easy discussion, if it was we'd have worked it all out ages ago.

As usual, the forced birthers are focussing on the vanishingly tiny number of late abortions, when what they actually want to do is deny women access to abortion at any stage. In some cases even including the MAP.

Smacks of hypocrisy and cherry picking where and when women can have their "autonomy"

Also the fact that some on here would deny a woman the right to appear on page 3 but absolutely support her in aborting an unborn baby to term,... well it boggles my mind.

Yes Larry the autonomy argument doesn't hold up- if that's the stance it needs to be all or nothing.
I cannot compare a foetus to an organ because it is distinct from the mothers body.
When lass talked about why it's preferable to deliver a dead baby to a live one in the case of late term abortion- the reasons suggested were-

1. So it doesn't walk the face of the earth
2. Incase woman can get better pain killers when baby is dead.

I think this thread illustrates quite well how a person can be feminist and pro-life-
I think labelling something pro-choice is not entirely accurate. Most people don't support abortion to term. They don't support many other things that come under "bodily autonomy" i.e. As someone said I don't support your right to pump yourself with heroin. I don't think anyone can claim to entirely support absolute autonomy because it's harmful. Therefore there is range of views on the issue- on where choice should have sensible limits.
I read an news article on another post a while ago where a women demanded an natural birth despite having had numerous c sections- she said it was her choice- In this case its dangerous to her and a waste of nhs funds when it all goes wrong. What I'm saying is autonomy rightly should have limits, within reason.

There is a big difference overall in rights from and rights to.

We have a right from being assaulted. We do not have a right to be assaulted.

We do not have an automatic right to surgery.

Late abortion does not only affect the pregnant woman. It affects the rights of the foetus (at very late term, most would call it a baby), the team who perform a traumatic procedure and society as a whole.

You cannot choose to define bodily autonomy in a way to help defend your argument. There are many ways in which we do not have total bodily autonomy.