Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

Yes sorry I didn’t mean to sound flippant, I’m not pro-life but I agree with the limit.

If you said unless you believe in abortion up to term you can’t be a feminist you’d be excluding an awful lot of people.

Not sure if that’s what people are saying or if they just mean up to the limit.

Actually I do believe in abortion up to term - I think any other position is illogical.

But 'just' believing fetal rights take precedence over women's isn't a small thing. It goes to the heart of what feminism is about and I believe anything that takes away women's rights is deeply unfeminist. And that's what this thread is about, it's not about debating current law around time-limits. The question posted was 'is being pro-life a feminist position?'

I don't believe it is.

And again, substitute forced birth for pro life and see how feminist that feels...

I think you can. At some point up to 24 weeks the majority of people do believe that the baby/foetus takes priotity over a woman wanting an abortion. People who are pro-life just believe that happens earlier.

So unless you agree with abortions up to term then women don’t have 100% bodily autonomy anyway.

Also why do you make an exception for rape? It's not the foetuses fault that it was conceived as a product of rape?

If you killed someone whilst defending yourself I wouldn't think it right you be convicted of murder. Abortion in the case of rape is also, in my opinion, a form of self defense even though the "victims" are innocent in this case there are very likely to be strong, ongoing emotional and mental problems for both the mother and the child if born following a rape.

What age do you believe the limit should be

I don't have enough scientific knowledge to give a precise age but some babies born prior to 24 weeks are now surviving and therefore I think it should be sooner (unless for medical reasons as these are often not detected until later in a pregnancy)

And who else is entitled to this equality? Black people, disabled people, poor people? Basically everyone but not infant children?

Basically everyone that isn't physically dependent on residing inside another person, requiring that other person to risk their health and well-being in order to keep them alive, and then risk, at the very least significant pain, and at the worst, death in order to give them life, when that isn't what that other person wants to do with their body. Im pretty sure pregnancy is the only situation this happens. It is not a question of equality that can be answered by drawing from other situations.

Infant children do have the right to live. Regardless of how emotive you want to be, a foetus is not an infant. They have not been born so legally they are not an infant, and common understanding of the word is for babies that have been born. TOP does not kill an infant in any sense of the word. At most it removes to possibility of an infant in the future.

I don't know anyone who had a late abortion that didn't have it because the fetus wasn't viable or would have been very ill or life of the mother was at risk. Unfortunately the twenty week scan isn't always performed dead on 20 weeks and then you need to give them both time to process and make their decision. Certainly would never want to be in the shoes of a woman in that situation and consider myself very lucky to have never been.

No Leilaniiii I don't believe a fetus is a child. Just because YOU call it by a different name, that does not make it so.

There is a significant difference between losing a wanted child at 23 weeks and ending an unwanted pregnancy and - amazingly! - I am able to adjust my response accordingly because I am not a fool.

For instance, if you had a friend who miscarried a baby at, say, 23 weeks gestation. What would you say to her? "Oh, it was only a foetus."

No because I'm polite. Just the way I wouldn't say "well at least you didn't have a miscarriage" to a woman TTC who got her period. Doesn't mean it isn't a fetus. When does it become a child to you? You can get a chemical pregnancy positive and be sad about it but you certainly haven't lost a child.

A fetus really isn't a child by any definition. Nor is it an infant.

I think the law should be changed to lower the gestational age that abortion is permitted but it is legal in the UK up until 24 weeks and no woman should be criticised for having one.

Sorry, I didn't read this post. What age do you believe the limit should be? Genuine questions by the way, sorry I know it can get a bit goady on the subject of abortion but I am interested in viewpoints different to my own.

I believe that human life begins at conception. Nevertheless I cannot oppose safe, accessible abortion. It's taken me a while to boil it down to 'who decides?' and 'whose rights take precedence until when?'

I see being pro choice as one aspect of feminism rather than its central tenet. Pro lifers can therefore be feminists IMO.

I'm pro-life. I believe a foetus is a human life from the point of conception and therefore only agree with termination in exceptional circumstances (rape, TFMR).

When you say you 'only agree' do you mean you just think its morally wrong to have an abortion but sometimes in life things do not always go as you would hope, or do you mean you would like to see abortion made illegal except in the cases you mentioned?

Also why do you make an exception for rape? It's not the foetuses fault that it was conceived as a product of rape? Is the value of the foetus purely dependent on how it was conceived?

There is, I guess, a theoretical argument that the foetus was created from man and woman in equal parts and both should have custody over it. That won’t be a popular view!

Well of course it won't, because you are literally ignoring the fact that it is the woman carrying the child. The fact that a man donated 50% of the DNA to the foetus absolutely does not give him the right to determine what she does with her own body. It isn't a parenting decision at all

How about we start with men (allmen) doing 50% of the child care, and when men (allmen) start paying their fair share of actual born children after a relationship breakdown and considering their current children before having more with someone else then we consider their "parental rights"?

I won't hold my breath.

For instance, if you had a friend who miscarried a baby at, say, 23 weeks gestation. What would you say to her? "Oh, it was only a foetus."

We aren't talking about infant children. We are talking about fetuses.

A foetus IS a child. Just because you call it by a different name, that does not make it not so.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett And who else is entitled to this equality? Black people, disabled people, poor people? Basically everyone but not infant children?

We aren't talking about infant children. We are talking about fetuses. But that's a nice piece of whattabouttery.

I d9nt want to debate the rights and wrongs of termination.

I think it's wrong for the reasons I've given. Many women think the law doesn't go far enough in allowing it.

I think the law should be changed to lower the gestational age that abortion is permitted but it is legal in the UK up until 24 weeks and no woman should be criticised for having one. For similar reasons I also wouldn't approach a woman considering an abortion with my viewpoint. She's having a legally allowed medical procedure which is none of my business and thus I keep my thoughts private.

There is, I guess, a theoretical argument that the foetus was created from man and woman in equal parts and both should have custody over it. That won’t be a popular view!

Well of course it won't, because you are literally ignoring the fact that it is the woman carrying the child. The fact that a man donated 50% of the DNA to the foetus absolutely does not give him the right to determine what she does with her own body. It isn't a parenting decision at all

I don't think it's a feminist viewpoint as it doesn't tally with my view of feminism but I'm not the arbiter of feminism either.

Unlike being a woman, you can "identify" as a feminist.

Very often people who oppose abortion moralise about contraception and offer nothing but judgement on the mother once the baby is born.

Not everyone. It depends on why you are pro-life. If it's for religious reasons then I think this is correct a lot of the time. However, there are lots of people who are pro-life but are atheists, for instance. I am pro-life and atheist.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett And who else is entitled to this equality? Black people, disabled people, poor people? Basically everyone but not infant children?

If they are engaged in ensuring women have access to contraception, support and the means to raise their children, then I am more sympathetic

That is very true. Very often people who oppose abortion moralise about contraception and offer nothing but judgement on the mother once the baby is born. Clearly then you are not talking about feminism in any guise.

There are however a few who see pregnancy as having no parallel due to biological constraints and are opposed to it based on their view that taking human life at any point in its existence is equally as wrong.

We hear a lot from the right wing (pay for it yourself) moralising lot but there are others who do not view abortion that way.

In answer to OP question. ^
Why you would ask?

No

HotCrossBun you can't have equality without autonomy.

I think pro-life women can call themselves feminists, but I don’t have to agree with them. If they are engaged in ensuring women have access to contraception, support and the means to raise their children, then I am more sympathetic, because just as I believe every child should be a wanted child, every abortion should be a wanted abortion, with women able to make the decision free of coercion or fear of financial consequences.

I still maintain women must have the right to abortion when that is their wish. All the moral and financial support in the world makes no difference to a woman who is for whatever reason not willing to be pregnant and have a baby.