Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

I fail to see how the “rights” of something utterly dependent on another human being to survive should come before that human being.

Spurious? No, I don't think so. Did I get that wrong? I would be delighted if I had

Yes a bit of a derail, but that's one haddock hole in your argument about bodily autonomy

As you were

ALunerExplorer - Which means. If youre not for abortion, for any reason, up to full term you cant be a feminist.

using manipulative terms like 'forced birth'...

Amethyst how is 'forced birth' manipulative?

A woman is pregnant. She doesn't want to be. She is told she cannot do anything about it and must give birth. She is being forced to give birth against her will. That isn't manipulative, that's a factual statement.

Saying 'having an abortion is child murder' on the other hand, would be manipulative.

Are you trying to derail a thread with spurious accusations Assigned?

Goodness.

I think the question becomes. If for whatever reason, at 30 weeks + a woman decides she wants an abortion. Can you be a feminist and be against the womans right to choose?

Funny you go on about bodily autonomy Lunar when you advocate allowing males into women's changing rooms without their consent

I'm a 'pro-life' feminist.

I'm just completely unconvinced that a developing human foetus, even at its earliest stages, is so devoid of humanity that it doesn't even have the most basic right to life. So, for me, the framing of the debate entirely in terms of woman's rights/reproductive rights is odd and misleading.

I have nothing but compassion for women or girls who find themselves pregnant under horrendous circumstances. But those circumstances shouldn't automatically trump other people's rights. A little like trans people with gender dysphoria - we have compassion for them but as feminists we usually don't see the solution as capitulating to everything they want at the expense of women, for example.

And following that example, using manipulative terms like 'forced birth' is just as frustrating as gender critical people being called bigots.

My honest gut reaction is: no. Because feminism isn't just about equality.

Its also about bodily autonomy, and being 'pro-life' (anti-abortion, anti-choice) is in direct contradiction to real equality because it denies bodily autonomy. Which still leaves us at the mercy of the patriarchy. So.

Apologies if someone has already raised that point, I haven't yet read through any of the other responses yet.

Amy is a married woman who is 30 weeks' pregnant with a healthy foetus intentionally conceived with her husband and no medical issues. She starts an extra-marital affair, and her new partner doesn't want the complication of a baby. She wants an abortion.

Her choice. It may make me uncomfortable on a personal level as it's something I don't think I could do, but I'm not the one with an unwanted pregnancy so tough. Regardless, the likelihood of this scenario happening on a regular basis is vanishingly small.

Jane and her husband Jack are excited that they are having a baby. At the scan they discover it is a girl. Jack only wants a boy, and Jane wants to please him, so she wants an abortion

Jane should be supported to make an informed choice and offered counselling to help her deal with the fact her husband is an ass.

Termination should be a woman's free choice. In scenario 2 it clearly isn't, is it?

But my position is abortion to term so both women would be offered terminations in those scenarios. I'm not saying I'd be out cheering #1's choice, but I believe it is her choice to make.

A lot of massive hypocrisy in this thread. If being Pro Life means being Pro forced birth. Then the ONLY feminist position on abortion is, on demand, for any reason at any point (including to term).

Lonnyvonnywilsonfrickett is completely correct any other position is illogical.

There are degrees of pro-choice. For instance: Amy is a married woman who is 30 weeks' pregnant with a healthy foetus intentionally conceived with her husband and no medical issues. She starts an extra-marital affair, and her new partner doesn't want the complication of a baby. She wants an abortion. How many feminists agree that she should be given one?
Or - Jane and her husband Jack are excited that they are having a baby. At the scan they discover it is a girl. Jack only wants a boy, and Jane wants to please him, so she wants an abortion. How many feminists agree that she should be given one?

I totally agree Bertrand
I think it’s hypocritical to be anti-abortion but to make exceptions in certain circumstances.
Either you believe a foetus has rights that trump the mother’s rights or you don’t. You can’t say that a disabled foetus has fewer rights than a non-disabled foetus for example.
I don’t know a huge amount about the debate among disability rights activists but I believe there are many people who feel strongly that the exception for disability is wrong.
I agree that it’s wrong but only because I think the rule shouldn’t exist in the first place so if we scrapped the rule we wouldn’t need disablist exceptions to it.

Of course no one is allowed to say what others should be allowed to think and that ties into the OP in that I believe anyone who feels they are should be allowed to call themselves a feminist.

But I really think that if you are anti abortion because you think that the rights of the foetus override the rights of the woman you can’t then make exceptions like rape.

FWIW Lonny I agree with your last post (11:00) word for word!

HotCross
TFMR is legal after 24 weeks.

I don’t want to derail with a debate about the time limit, but I do want to remind people that not every woman/girl knows she is pregnant before she reaches 24 weeks - it’s not common but it’s not unheard of either, and for teen/underage pregnancy in particular, there could be an element of denial and fear of telling someone and seeking help and advice.

“I appreciate posters will become goady with me because my view is against the popular one on Mumsnet.”

Nobody should be goady with you. They might disagree with you. A very different thing.

And actually, I think you view is quite a common one on Mumsnet.

Thanks for clarifying Lonny.

Abortion to term is legal for fetal abnormality and where the pregnancy poses a risk to the woman's life. It's not legal for 'social' reasons after 24 weeks.

Always worth stating when we talk about abortion in the UK that our sisters in Ireland don't have the same rights, of course.

harla yeah, I'm aware that abortion to term isn't a popular opinion and it's one it took a lot of soul-searching to arrive at. For me, it's that if I trust women to make their own decisions up to 24 weeks I have to keep trusting women to make their own decisions right up to 40 weeks. To then take that autonomy away feels wrong.

But I know many will disagree and don't want to derail with my opinions on time limits. I can accept that I'm out of step with many people and many feminists on time limits, what I can't accept is people seeking to reduce limits further.

I have to be honest and say I though abortion was legal after 24 weeks in the case of severe birth defects.

I have to say, I'm not in favour of abortion up to term. Maybe that's illogical, but I just think that 24 weeks is a good limit, because it gives enough time after 20 week scan for any decisions to be made. The number of women who have an abortion at that sort of time just because they don't want to be pregnant any more, with no other medical or major psychological issues, is pretty much zero.

I appreciate posters will become goady with me because my view is against the popular one on Mumsnet.

The idea of forced organ donation is entirely different to abortion and my opinion on it is not relevant to this thread.

If you killed someone whilst defending yourself I wouldn't think it right you be convicted of murder. Abortion in the case of rape is also, in my opinion, a form of self defense even though the "victims" are innocent in this case there are very likely to be strong, ongoing emotional and mental problems for both the mother and the child if born following a rape.

What about strong ongoing emotional and mental problems following a pregnancy that a woman simply didn't want to go through with, even if she consented to the sex that caused the conception? What if she was forced to go through with a pregnancy that she didn't want to, and then the birth was awful and left her with life long injuries? Forcing someone to go through medical procedures against their consent is barbaric.

Would you agree with forced organ donation so that lives could be saved? Everyone on a database and if your kidney for example was a match, then you have to donate it because otherwise someone innocent will die?