Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

If your reason for being opposed to abortion is that rights of the foetus trump the rights of the woman there can be no exceptions. And vice versa.

I think it's more about balancing the right to life for the foetus with whatever rights are in question for the woman. That's going to look slightly different in each individual case.

I know a feminist who is pro life. I was rather surprised when I found out as she's very...hard core.

But she is (as I understand it) on the side of any foetus=life and wanting increased contraception and assistance for the women who do end up unhappily pregnant, and will also not actively campaign against abortion. I don't personally understand it, but at least her views are consistent. I'm always puzzled by the proTFMR, pro-rape-abortions, anti-anything-else viewpoints.

I had a good friend who committed suicide because she was being forced to undergo a pregnancy that resulted from rape. I'm pretty immovable on this subject frankly. I’m sorry lunar, that sounds awful.

Here's something from last year: women in Arkansas now need to seek the permission of the men who impregnated them before they can get an abortion. So bugger all equality there then.

www.independent.co.uk/News/world/americas/women-arkansas-abortion-men-permission-male-us-pro-choice-life-planned-parenthood-termination-a7834861.html

I really dont think it can be a debatable thing. I mean in terms of altering the law. Surely what another woman does with her body should not be dictated by anyone else. Thats what it comes down to. Having a personal belief is fine, trying to convince people to also believe that is fine. But actively forcing people to live by your beliefs is not fine at all and cannot be considered feminist because feminism has fought for a long long time for women to have complete control over their bodies. No one should be supporting any laws which take individual womens control over what happens to their own bodies, away from them. The power for abuse is too easy and also as pp have said doing that makes many women suffer as women will turn to desperate measures to get rid of their baby... a lot of it has to do with poverty or cultural pressures or pressures or fear from men around them and you stand to make these situations worse when abortion is illegal. So even if morally you dont agree with the choice the impact of taking that choice away causes far far more harm than could ever be justifiable even if you dont think abortion is the 'right' thing to do.

I was raised Catholic and I woul personally never have an abortion but the thought of women being prevented from having them and what situations that might put them in and how it may lead them to be controlled utterly in other ways just repulses me. That eclipses my own personal feelings about responsibility to potential lives. We have more of a responsibility to the lives already here.

No. It’s an anti woman stance.

Kind of like saying women should be paid less but I’m still a feminist.

I live in Ireland and I tell you it’s depressing, the prolife stance is a direct reflection of the oppressive, male religious dominated culture here. I would also say I find the female prolifers much more down on women than the men prolifers I’ve met.

No, they don't. I've heard that one for years from people anxious who want to see legal rights to abortion in the country completely repealed, as have comrades in Ireland right now. But then, most anti-choice arguments are entirely emotive, and have little or nothing to do with the welfare of the woman, who is regarded as little more than a vessel for reproduction

yes, they do, and its a pro choice argument. That tired old trope that every woman has to anguish and agonise before regretfully choosing abortion...its purest bollocks. Many woman say "fuck, I'm pregnant, book the abortion".

If your reason for being opposed to abortion is that rights of the foetus trump the rights of the woman there can be no exceptions. And vice versa.

A woman can want an abortion for reasons that I think trivial, but it is not my decision, it is hers. This is all incredibly difficult to think about, but it really comes down to a simple binary choice.

Sorry, that first sentence is a bit of a mess. I've heard that from people anxious to repeal legal rights to abortion in this country, is what its supposed to say. (I've probably overdone the chocolate cake consumption this morning! )

I fail to see how the “rights” of something utterly dependent on another human being to survive should come before that human being.

And that's a great point.

All I'm saying is that I'm concerned that abortion is fast becoming a #nodebate subject within feminism, when there are still widely held differing viewpoints.

of course they do. For many people its not even a decision, its a forregone conclusion.

No, they don't. I've heard that one for years from people anxious who want to see legal rights to abortion in the country completely repealed, as have comrades in Ireland right now. But then, most anti-choice arguments are entirely emotive, and have little or nothing to do with the welfare of the woman, who is regarded as little more than a vessel for reproduction.

Do you really have to be pro life or pro choice? Is there not middle ground?

I mean I believe;
Life starts at conception
That abortion should not be used as a contraceptive option
That no woman should be forced to give birth
That the life of the woman does out weigh that of the foetus (because the foetus is entirely dependant on the woman)
That there are many many reasons why brining a baby into the world is not in the best interests of any of them
That abortion should not be the only option considered
That removing the option of abortion the you are doing far more harm then good
That every case and circumstance is unique

Abortion would never be an option I would actively encourage, but equally, everyone has the right to chose and no one should affect that choice. So not really sure where I exist?

I would consider myself a feminist although I don't like the term personally. I believe in equality for all, no would should be unfairly treated based on sex, or colour, race, sexuality, or class.

So who knows, I guess I just don't like labels much. I'm more in the middle ground I guess.

*Amethyst how is 'forced birth' manipulative?

A woman is pregnant. She doesn't want to be. She is told she cannot do anything about it and must give birth. She is being forced to give birth against her will. That isn't manipulative, that's a factual statement.*

I find it a manipulative term because it ignores the fact that abortion is actually a complex debate, in which many people think there is more to it than straightforward rights for the woman involved.

Saying 'having an abortion is child murder' on the other hand, would be manipulative.

I agree. That is also a manipulative turn of phrase.

People have different standpoints as to when they think a child has the right to live regardless of the wishes of the mother. For some this is at the moment of conception, for others it is at the current 24 week cut off point. Personally I don't think feminism has anything to do with it.

I think they could be feminist if it was their own personal belief, and it was just that they tried to convince women that it was always best to try and carry on with any pregnancy.

But if they think that it should be enshrined in law that women cannot access abortion services except in extreme situations then I do not think they are a feminist. Even if they consider themselves to be.

I think the issue is over 'force'
Any woman who would have another woman forced to bear a child against her wishes is not a feminist.

Have a cup of tea and a biscuit or something Assigned. I've got a nice bit of chocolate cake here I'm happy to share - there's no need to be snippy.

whatnow123 nobody who makes the decision to terminate a pregnancy does so lightly

of course they do. For many people its not even a decision, its a forregone conclusion.

whatnow123 nobody who makes the decision to terminate a pregnancy does so lightly. But anything which treats a person like a mere vessel for reproduction is oppressive and violent.

I had a good friend who committed suicide because she was being forced to undergo a pregnancy that resulted from rape. I'm pretty immovable on this subject frankly.

Sorry OP I meant to address your posts directly; so here’s why I don’t agree that any of those points from your pro life friends are feminist:

I've asked them if it were sexist to be pro-life, and they explained these points to me:

-They entirely believe in the equality of men and women

Great they believe in equality of men and women in theory. However if they thought about that for any short amount of time they will see that It’s not possible for women to have any kind of equality with men in life, their relationships, their public life- work, political representation etc without meaningful control of their own fertility (access to free contraception) and child bearing (access to free abortion and to free appropriate pregnancy care and freedom to make those choices) , otherwise women’s usually smaller, relatively weaker and child bearing biology can and will be used against us.

Eg think about how rape and forced marriage and birth are used as weapons in war against women, because only women literally bear the consequences. There is no equivalent of that, that women can impose on men. It comes back down to our biology.

-The reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

No. It has EVERYTHING to do with sex- as in the disparity of male and female biology and how this should be viewed and controlled, in a pro life viewpoint.
It also has everything to do with sex because it is usually coupled with (religiously based) judgement about what is appropriate sexual activity on the part of women and men, involving double standards and ultimately woman-blaming and woman-punishing attitudes. Which ultimately punish their children too of course. Kind of weird for people who say they love and want to save all the babies..

-If men could bear children, their opinion of abortion would be the exact same, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

That’s equally as bad (that your pro life friend would be just as happy to opproess men if their biology was different)... but biology will never BE different so that idea is irrelevant. Saying that does not make anyone an ‘equalist’ since in this world only women (and children) are being punished by the anti- choice world view. Men will never face that problem.

-They want to save babies of all genders, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

Great! There is a so much good work they could do with the thousands of babies, children and their mothers who face a lot of practical and economic challenges and burdens and also lack of social support and stigma sometimes (often stemming from sexism which feeds in to the anti choice agenda). They could campaign and vote to stop the Tories smashing up with welfare state for a start, slashing education budgets and to start funding the NHS properly too. That would help a lot.

If anyone’s mission is ‘saving babies’ though, it’s important to know that this has literally fuck all to do with stopping or stigmatising and harassing pregnant women who want or need an abortion.

It all comes down to when you believe life begins. If you believe it begins at conception and the fetus is a human with rights of its own, it is reasonable to conclude that its right to live comes above the mother's right to bodily autonomy. Freedom is limited when it harms others.

I wouldn't be in favour of banning abortion but I do not think it is an extreme view for someone to hold.

I fail to see how the “rights” of something utterly dependent on another human being to survive should come before that human being. You could say that about a newborn. Newborns restrict the freedom of women also.

Sorry, I'm not sure that was clear. I need to explore the idea of abortion to term. It feels abhorrent to me, but logically I'm not sure.

Isn't the 24 week limit also to do with the viability of the foetus?

A woman is pregnant. She doesn't want to be. She is told she cannot do anything about it and must give birth. She is being forced to give birth against her will. That isn't manipulative, that's a factual statement.

But if she has an abortion at term she will still have to 'give birth' against her will won't she? Does 'forced birth' mean forced to actually give birth, or forced to give birth to a live baby that you don't want to be alive?

Sure. It's your cognitive dissonance, not mine

Spurious - oh yes.

And we'll save this for another time, because frankly, on your terms, bodily autonomy is definitely not for trans people. Quite the opposite in fact.

But lets not derail this discussion any further.

As you were too.

Fish - so you are saying that a baby that will be born tomorrow is not a human being? You call it "something".
You also seem to be saying that a woman should have the right to abort (kill) even if she has a trivial reason for doing so. Eg a woman who wants to abort a foetus because the due date of birth clashes with a pre-booked holiday should be permitted to terminate the life of the foetus? The right for a woman to go on holiday when she wants to wins over a right to live a life?
I believe in the right to abort, but not without limitation.