Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

Is there not a separate web page you feminist types can use?

This is the oddest thing I've ever seen here

No. But it was being used as an argument against the position that you either think the foetus or the woman take priority-there can be no middle ground.

Ah, ok.

Is there not a separate web page you feminist types can use?

This is comedy gold. May I suggest not going on Feminist Chat if you want to avoid... feminists chatting.

There are philosophical arguments, all well covered.

Then there are practical/sociological, political arguments. The countries with the most legal access to abortions are also the countries with the lowest rates of abortion and best outcomes for women. In the few countries with no legal abortions (like Nicaragua), they still have high abortion rates, with the added issue of women's deaths (82 in 11 months according to Human Rights Watch).

We know legal abortion is associated with low rates of abortion, earlier abortion and good outcomes for women. Illegal abortion is associated with higher abortion rates and high maternal mortality as well. Why would anyone, never mind a feminist, be against legal abortion if they want good outcomes? If you are a feminist and want low abortion rates, from a purely practical POV you should want free, accessible and legal abortion. Less late term and dangerous abortions. The 'worst' ones.

So I can only conclude that people who want abortion to be illegal, don't have good logic skills or have some other reason for wanting to restrict women's choices. Which is often internalized misogyny.

"Is there not a separate web page you feminist types can use?"

What, like one called "feminism chat"?

Yes, Amethyst; because then you choose to put the mother last.

But if you believe that the foetus is human enough to warrant the human right of 'right to life', then surely, unless it's a case of the mother's life being in danger as a result of the pregnancy or birth, then that's a good argument for the mother not to come first?

Could the right to life not be said to trump most other rights?

Is there not a separate web page you feminist types can use?

“But is that such an unreasonable position from someone who genuinely believes the foetus is intrinsically human?”

No. But it was being used as an argument against the position that you either think the foetus or the woman take priority-there can be no middle ground.

Yes, Amethyst; because then you choose to put the mother last.

That’s still putting the rights and needs of the fetus first.

But is that such an unreasonable position from someone who genuinely believes the foetus is intrinsically human?

No, you can't be a feminist and be pro-forced-birth.

Feminism isn't about some ephemeral idea of equality. It's political movement that works towards the liberation of women from patriarchy.

Only women can give birth, women's reproductive labour is the prime motivator behind patriarchal norms of inequality, forcing women into reproductive labour is the epitome of women's subjugation.

Pro-forced-birth stances and women's liberation are incompatible on all levels.

The idea that anti-choice believers would feel the same if it were men who gave birth are, frankly, fooling themselves. If men gave birth, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

I'm anti abortion because I value the life of the unborn baby. But if there are say medical reasons that will make that baby's life unbearable then I think abortion should be considered because I value the child's life”

That’s still putting the rights and needs of the fetus first.

If your reason for being opposed to abortion is that rights of the foetus trump the rights of the woman there can be no exceptions. And vice versa.

This isn't true.

I'm anti abortion because I value the life of the unborn baby. But if there are say medical reasons that will make that baby's life unbearable then I think abortion should be considered because I value the child's life.

I love how people come on and say "you cant think this" as though the opinions of others haven't been carefully thought about before being reached. Some MNers seem to think they're the thought police, it's unnecessary and patronising.

The phrase "if men could bear children" bears as much relevance to a discussion on abortion imo as "if babies were all grown in incubators and we lived on the moon" or "if storks delivered babies from fairy dust".

They don't. It's utterly irrelevant as it's so far from the actuality of life. If men had babies, maybe we would live in a complete reverse matriarchy (except they'd then be the mothers, so would it still be called a matriarchy?) or it could be an equal rights utopia. Who knows, it's just made up ideas based on impossible whataboutery.

"Today 13:53 DevilsAdvocate123

If this is their philosophical reasoning, then I genuinely believe that these people aren't coming from a place of sexism".
But those are just your usual bog standard forced birth arguments, whether the person making them claims to be a feminist or not. And anyone making them is practically by definition not a feminist because of the bodily autonomy thing. Whether or not it's sexist is irrelevant.

hat argument is entirely rooted in trying to shame the person seeking the abortion. Most anti-choice arguments are. That's why the language used is so emotive

It's the exact opposite, ffs. I'm pro choice to birth. We are sick of being told that its always a difficult decision, that its a huge deal. Sure for some it is, for others not at all. For some women it is a simple choice and a basic medical procedure.
Stop using women in your arguments, especially when you can't tell pro choice from anti, even when you've been told which it is [hmm

How can you write a post like your one at 13:45 and then conclude those statements aren't sexist?

Only women can bear children. It doesn't matter if people would theoretically oppress men, chocolate bars or martians on the same basis. You are talking about a state which only applies to women, therefore these views are sexist. And you can't be sexist and feminist.

Mind you, I've only just clocked your user name so...

That tired old trope that every woman has to anguish and agonise before regretfully choosing abortion...its purest bollocks. Many woman say "fuck, I'm pregnant, book the abortion".

That argument is entirely rooted in trying to shame the person seeking the abortion. Most anti-choice arguments are. That's why the language used is so emotive.

The only way to reduce the need for abortion is to make sure that there is free unfettered access to contraception and healthcare,(something which some anti-choice campaigners oppose), and to remove any and all barriers to bodily autonomy, including sexual violence.

Ah yes I'm pretty much okay now, thanks

As would I Beyond. And I'm so sorry you went through that. So much of the mh conversation around pregnancy and birth is around post-natal depression, (and that matters enormously) - but we don't talk enough about the mh needs during pregnancy, or the impact of pregnancy on mental health. I've seen first hand the shaming of women who are pregnant and are anything but 'glowing and radiant'. I do hope you're okay now and that you have the support you need. And sending cyber hugs to you.

Lunar, I'm sorry about your friend (sorry - I'd missed it your post on first read through). I had truly shit pregnancies mh-wise and it was only the fact that they were planned and wanted that kept me this side of suicide, if they weren't I have no doubt that I'd be dead. It's my experience that makes me so far to the opposite side of pro life that I take no issue with the intended insult "pro abortion" being thrown at me. Yes, I would rather any woman abort at any time than go through what I did.

EndofSummer thanks. Yes it was. We were 18 when it happened, and whilst I cant any longer support women going to abortion clinics (because of disability), it led to quite a few of us (her friends) getting into that kind of work. The cost of giving any ground on this would be far too high, and its not a price I want to see paid ever again. I am rooting for comrades in Ireland right now, who are fighting hard to #repealthe8th.