Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

The thought experiment is if it was possible to harmlessly teleport a foetus out of a woman's body and into say an infertile woman who wanted the pregnancy, would I support that? Or into an incubator if the foetus was viable? I think on balance yes

I would say no, unless the woman gave full informed consent to do so and still had the option of a proper abortion.

This woman needed support not imprisonment. She did not want to be pregnant

Well I would not make her your poster girl. I think you would find very few people who would not take the view if she had gone that far she could have gone to another week and given birth. You can't actually be forced to take a child home from the hospital.

There are 2 logical positions on abortion- life begins at conception and it is always wrong - or a termination is legal until birth.

The law in the UK adopts an illogical but pragmatic approach. Abortion is legal to 24 weeks (one of the longest in the world)and still legal in extreme circumstances after that.

I am glad of this and support this illogical pragmatism which came about, I think, by legislators seeing abortion as the less bad thing of 2 bad things. Public opinion in the UK generally supports this illogical pragmatism but it is the case, as Larry pointed out, more women than men support a reduction below 24 weeks. I would leave mainland UK where it is but get rid of the 2 doctor rule and obviously bring NI into line.

I think women who are sexually active have a duty to do as much as they can to avoid getting pregnant if they don't want to be.

I have read on MN comments like I know I had been a bit casual about contraception or my periods were always irregular so I didn't suspect anything (Seriously you are having sex, pregnancy tests are cheap and reliable - no matter how irregular your periods are did it not occur to you after 6,7,8 werks without one to check?).

If women want to be treated like grown-ups- then behave like one. Clearly this admonishment does not apply to women and girls in situations where they cannot take responsibility.

I hate the language used by some on the pro-choice side- foetus, parasite. I don't think such language is helpful to bringing NI into line with the rest of the UK or making abortion legal in Ireland.

I think that sort of language and citing the case you referred to and expecting sympathy for her, are a very good way of hardening opinion in those who want to lower the UK limit.

I neither know nor care if my position is a feminist one or not.

The thought experiment is if it was possible to harmlessly teleport a foetus out of a woman's body and into say an infertile woman who wanted the pregnancy, would I support that? Or into an incubator if the foetus was viable? I think on balance yes. But that's not what we have here.

Yes, interesting point whatnow. If the foetus can survive outside of the womb, does it have to be killed if the woman no longer wants to support it with her body?

The woman should have control over whether a live child comes out of her body or not.

And I can admit this is where I still am thinking hard.

Because I support the right of a woman to halt her pregnancy.
I think (I'm still working this out for myself) it preferable if that foetus can be born alive if it can sustain its own life.

But again, I wouldn't want to legislate against or criminalise a woman for what she does literally INSIDE her body. It's still her body, her organs are her own, and I'm still opposed to granting separate rights to anything inside her body that can conflict with her own rights.

So I suppose it comes down to trusting women to do whatever they feel they must with their own bodies and accepting those outcomes.

Ultimately, it comes down to granting rights to people from the moment they are born and separate individuals, but not before, not whilst they are part of / within another human's body

Yes, interesting point whatnow. If the foetus can survive outside of the womb, does it have to be killed if the woman no longer wants to support it with her body?

"Well I've never been called a forced birther before, and I've not heard it suggested that agreeing with abortion without limits was a requirement for being a feminist."

I haven't said it was.

My argument's a bit more nuanced than that, but it's too late to go into tonight, I might come back to this tomorrow.

For arguments sake, I agree that no other being has the right to live off another and baby or foetus can be removed from the woman at anytime, on demand.

However, to do this the state will not kill the baby and will do all it can to ensure it's survival if possible.

So if someone wants a baby removing from them at 8 months. The NHS will do that, but will only do it in a way, that doesn't kill the baby or foetus. Or must the foetus be killed in all instances.

The state has the right to legalise slavery too. But we've accepted that people should own themselves, not be owned by others.

Civilisation is about allowing individuals to live free from ownership.

It is not murder to withdraw life support from another.
It is not manslaughter to refuse to have one's own body compelled into the service of another against one's own self interest.

I can't demand one of your kidneys and then criminalise you if you refuse to give it to me.

If you need one of mine, and I refuse it, your death is not my responsibility, nor are you murdered by me.

I won't even deny that a foetus will cease to exist if it cannot continue to draw on, and be created by, the body of a woman. I accept this. It's true. A foetus is alive in much the same way as a patient on life support is, the difference being that a patient can be kept alive by a machine, but not by the state compelling another person to give so much as a drop of blood.

I contend that no being has the right to the use of another's body to maintain its own life.
I'm saying that every person has the right to refuse the use of their body for another's benefit.

I'm saying that I weigh up the balance of enforced bodily slavery of women vs the 'right' of a foetus to have use of that woman's body, and I come firmly down in favour of treating women as unslaved, autonomous people, and against that of a foetus to have protected rights over a woman's body.

How can it not include you, if you believe that women should be forced to carry pregnancies and give birth against their will if they haven't sorted out a termination before 24 weeks? That's being in favour of forced birth, isn't it?

But if you haven't sorted out a termination by 24 weeks you will have to 'give birth' anyway won't you? Unless 'forced birth' means 'giving birth to a live baby that you don't want to be alive'? Which, maybe it does.

Sometimes it makes me frustrated though; in the US the original women’s liberation movement had nothing to say about abortion; the campaign for abortion was driven by MEN who worked hard to get Betty Friedan and her supporters on board

That is absolute bollocks.

Well I've never been called a forced birther before, and I've not heard it suggested that agreeing with abortion without limits was a requirement for being a feminist. So yeah, I'm a bit surprised by this thread and asked for clarification.

Bloody hell, 8 years in prison for a woman clearly in need of help! I certainly don't agree with that and can see that if she had access to an abortion earlier when she initially sought help (though it was after 24 weeks) it would never have got that far.

Do States have rights or do people have rights?

"When you say pro forced birth basil, do you include those of us who don't want the 24 week limit increased?"

How can it not include you, if you believe that women should be forced to carry pregnancies and give birth against their will if they haven't sorted out a termination before 24 weeks? That's being in favour of forced birth, isn't it?

Unless you think there's another way of denying women an abortion without forcing them to undergo a pregnancy and birth they don't want?

BarrackerBarmer - The state has the right to set the abortion limit to whenever it wants.

If a woman takes it into her own hands and potentially kills a live baby, like possibly happened in this case. It's murder or manslaughter.

Jemima

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9548293/Mother-who-aborted-baby-in-final-week-of-pregnancy-jailed-for-eight-years.html

This woman needed support not imprisonment. She did not want to be pregnant.
"The court heard that Catt had an appointment for a consultation at a Marie Stopes abortion clinic in March 2010, but a scan the day before showed that she was 29 weeks five days pregnant and so too late for a legal termination."

As early as possible, as late as necessary.

I’ve had that song stuck in my head reading this thread all day

@OkPedro with you 100% sister. Please feel free to PM if there's anything direct I can do from Scotland.

I cant be the only one thinking of the 'Every Sperm is Sacred' Monty Python song/sketch when they read that BrendasUmbrella

Women's bodies dispose of potential babies every time they menstruate. While people are clusters of cells it does not follow that clusters of cells are people.

The average man ends millions of potential lives every single day...

No, I don't think that an anti-choice position is generally compatible with feminism. The arguments from bodily autonomy have been done already (and I agree with them).

There's also the fact that the most basic tenet of feminism is to put women first. Feminists understand that it matters not one jot if abortion is legal or illegal, because a woman who wants an abortion will do her level best to find one. And world wide, 45,000 women a year die trying to do that, in countries where they can't access safe, legal abortion. So anyone who seeks to prevent women accessing abortion, you're not "saving babies", you're just killing women. And their foetuses go with them. It's not much of a result. And it also can't possibly be feminist.

Saying you are a pro life feminist is like saying you're a vegetarian who eats bacon. . You've missed a basic point. You can say you're vegetarian till you're blue in the face, but your acts aren't compatible with what you're saying.

I know women who have massive reservations about abortion, and would never have one themselves, who are also ardent feminists. But they keep their opinions to themselves, and they have been front and centre with me at pro choice events. They're still doing feminism.

varvara
We're fighting to change our constitution in Ireland at the moment #repealthe8th
Your opinion is what I've been reading from others who are anti abortion
I'm always baffled when the " it benefits men" argument is used 🤔

Also want to thank the few posters on this thread who are standing beside us in solidarity #repealthe8th Ireland 🇮🇪 💪

Barmer, I'm pro the current 24 week limit. I don't agree with criminalising the women who terminate their pregnancies after that date or punishment by the state. Have any women been prosecuted for terminating their own pregnancy beyond that limit? I don't remember ever hearing of any, but I'd be happy to campaign against that.

I accept that my status quo solution does limit the bodily autonomy of some women. But then, so does my anti legalisation of prostitution stance, where I again don't believe in prosecution or punishment of the women involved.

Interesting varvara. I was very struck by this comment:
“in my opinion today the people who benefit most from abortion are still men.”
Please could you explain this a bit more? I completely disagree and I’m curious about the reasoning behind it.
In my opinion a woman forced to continue a pregnancy against her will is the person most affected by it, and on the other side of the coin is most affected by the right to an abortion if she chooses to have one.
Surely women benefit from having control over whether or not to carry their pregnancies to term?!
Men can control women by allowing or withholding abortion. But it doesn’t affect their bodies, or even their lives, if they choose (as fathers) to walk away.