Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

Lonny I don't think I'm disagreeing with you. I think if you base your points around compassion and protecting women that there will absolutely be women for whom an abortion was the right choice. I don't want to actively prevent women from having abortions but I think there are risks if we normalise abortion as opposed to framing it as a serious option of absolute last resort as I believe it ought to be. I have seen some "mystery shopping" results of pregnancy "advice" and it seems to be very much biased in favour of abortion, minimalising the risks and other options. I fully accept abortion can be the only choice and in some cases a good choice but underneath what can be a good choice without regret, it is 100% of the time a tragedy. Nobody ends a pregnancy for fun and games.

square feminists believe abortion should be a free choice. That not only means that it should be a freely available and safe option, but that that no-one should be able to force or pressure a woman into having one.

When you read stories about women who regret an abortion, if you scratch the surface you'll usually find a woman who felt forced into it. where it was a truly free choice, women don't tend to regret it (in my anecdatal experience).

Are loads of expats going to fly home for the #repealthe8th referendum, do you think?

I really hope so. I got one have not booked a holiday away this summer because I want to be absolutely certain I am here for the vote.

I worked in gynaecology years ago

Really?? Leila

There are almost no obstetricians who are completely anti abortion, obstetricians have to carry out abortions to save women’s lives regularly so they are literally at the coalface of facing up to the grey area that is abortion is actually sometimes a necessity and sometimes you have to make the call that it is necessary when maybe it actually might not have been.

They could not find one obstetrician to willingly come and speak before a government committee in Ireland to defend the 8th amendment because the vast, vast majority believe the 8th amendment compromises them doing their job properly.

I don't use the term feminist (because of associations with the radical left wing) but I am pro life. I think abortion should be safe and legal, but crucially rare. I think our law as it stands is correct, but that someone needs to crack down on organisations like Marie Stopes and BPAS taking the piss and having doctors who have never met the woman concerned signing stacks of forms. I am fundamentally opposed to disabled children being aborted for social reasons, and I believe that adoption has actually become more stigmatised in our society than abortion. I think women should have access to a full range of options and truly impartial advice. I do practice what I preach- until recently I worked for a charity that provided practical help to women with unplanned or crisis pregnancies, and I don't think I would personally judge someone who has had an abortion.
My concerns in terms of women's rights are that making abortion easier is handing a golden ticket to men who don't want to take responsibility. I know a man who more or less forced an ex to have an abortion, and nobody stopped him. I also have concerns about socially aborting female babies because they are seen by some communities as less valuable. It might be rare but it happens and it's unacceptable.
I would like to see the abortion limit changed from 24 to 20 weeks. In 1967 we did not have the technology to detect pregnancies in early weeks, now you can easily buy a pregnancy test in a pound shop, we have emergency contraception available over the counter and even for free in sexual health clinics. We also have more medical advances that mean that babies are viable far earlier than when the abortion act came in.
I honestly do think we should treat women with unplanned pregnancies with compassion and kindness, I just have concerns about abortion on demand and feel it could be abused.

Are loads of expats going to fly home for the #repealthe8th referendum, do you think?

Spare a thought today for the women and girls in Ireland having their flights cancelled because of the snow and all their hard made arrangements wrecked #repealthe8th

Illogical pragmatism describes exactly how I feel about abortion before viability. Thank you. I do believe that it is the ending of an actual human life. But I'm also pro choice. It's uncomfortable.

Induction on demand after viability, or CS under general anesthesia, would be consistent with a pro choice stance IMO.

There's undoubtedly logic in supporting abortion to term. But my personal illogical pragmatism doesn't stretch as far as terminating an independently viable foetus.

Mirena is over 99% effective according to the NHS.

I agree with Lass - illogical pragmatism.

Your posts have been great on this thread.

Ah I don't test, but then my DH is vasectomised and I'm on abortifacient medication, so it would take one determined embryo to get through all of that!
I don't think it does fail that often (iirc the stats are better for mirena than for tubal ligation), I don't think my small group is representative. Just pointing out that is does happen, even if it's rare.

I'm on the implant, was thinking about switching to Mirena... Maybe not now!!

I had no idea that the Mirena failed so often, and suspect some other women didn't either, so thanks to those who mentioned it.

On the subject upthread of periods, I haven't had one since I had my Mirena coil fitted. I have two friends in my relatively small circle who got pregnant when they had mirenas in

Up to you but that is rather the point I was making. You don't want to get pregnant, are using a method which might fail but gives you no indication if it has failed. If it were me, knowing all of that, I wouldn't rely on assuming it will be fine when I could easily check at very little cost that all was fine.

Lass

I agree with you. 'Illogical prgamatism' is the best answer to a problem with no good solution.

I also think the 24 weeks date should be lowered as the viability of life date becomes earlier. Where this leads us in the future is one to ponder

I see you, Leilaniii.

The logical conclusion I wouĺd come to following that line is that I would be opposed to abortion. The illogical position which I can tolerate emotionally is the UK position with a bit of relaxation.

I think this is me, too. I’ve never really thought about it in this way. The idea of it being a position one can tolerate emotionally. I think of myself as pro-choice and wouldn’t agree with any limit reduction.

Sorry I used babies. It's just natural to me. I retract - fetus!

Exactly alpineibex. It would be a 'forced birth' whether the baby was alive or dead. So why not let it live and give it a chance? After it is born it is its own person. Let it live its life.

If aborted babies are never born alive, how do you get abortion survivors?

I am pro-choice, but not sure how I feel about abortion to full-term. Just remembering when mine was born, and thinking that theoretically (if you could abort to term), I could have aborted her a few days earlier, makes me feel... Weird? I'm not sure.

But, the forced-birth argument would still stand up to term, wouldn't it? By that I mean that if a woman decided to abort at term, she would still have to give birth to a fully developed but dead baby? So then the argument is not about forced birth, but about not wanting adoption or to raise a child. ?

That's extremely rude of you, LineysHorseWithNoName. Maybe you should do some research before you use psychiatric problems as an insult.

On the subject upthread of periods, I haven't had one since I had my Mirena coil fitted. I have two friends in my relatively small circle who got pregnant when they had mirenas in.

Leilaniii if you choose to believe that, you need psychiatric help