Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

It should surely be only in very exceptional circumstances that it should be permissible to perform an abortion in the later stages of pregnancy.
For instance, if a woman decides, at week 30, to split up from her partner, and doesn't want to be a single mother, and as she is not going to keep the baby doesn't want to go through childbirth, I would not see that as being a good enough reason to kill a by that time viable child.
In most circumstances - contraceptive failure etc, the woman has the opportunity to abort in the early stages. Why should she be given the opportunity to abort later?
She has conceived the baby - which in the absence of rape she has some responsibility for. She has then elected not to abort the baby in the early stages. I don't see why she should not be required to be responsible for the baby to the extent of not being offered an abortion in the late stages of pregnancy. The baby is not some foreign body that has been forced into her body without her consent.
All the stuff about a foetus not being "competent" is rubbish (a seriously disabled person may not be competent, but has the right to live). The argument that a foetus is alive only in the sense that an organ of one's body is alive is also very unhelpful. The foetus is a full human, with a brain, a sense of pain, the ability to function on its own once it is born, etc.

Can seeking to limit women's access to abortion ever be a feminist act?

I don't care one way or another about being a feminist but would ask you - is campaigning for a position which is extreme, has zero chance of being adopted and every chance of alienating support a feminist act if you want to help women in countries where abortion is banned or limited?

How many women terminate simply because it's a convenient option? very few I would say, but there is certainly a spectrum of reasons where I believe the pro-lifers can cope or can't cope

Perhaps I'm completely wrong, but with pro-lifers it really does seem to come down to not IF a termination is ok, but WHY...

The "pro-lifers" are probably the vast majority of the public, including those who support the current UK position.

What those who support abortion to term for any or no reason can't or won't answer is what is the difference between a woman being induced to give birth at 39 weeks, where at some point in that process the life of the foetus must be ended, and a woman giving birth to a baby at 39 weeks if there is no compulsion or coercion therafter to be a mother to the foetus or child?

In one scenario active steps must be taken to terminate the life of the foetus and in the other a baby will be nourished and looked after.

Saying , but this scenario will only rarely happen doesn't answer it. "Bodily autonomy" "her choice" doesn't answer it because by that point the physical process is identical.

I totally agree that it's impossible to be a perfect feminist emma. God knows I'm far from perfect myself! I just think we shouldn't dress up our non-feminist actions (of which I do many, as do we all) as us doing feminism. Loads of them don't matter - like leg shaving - but there are a few core ones that really, really do, like women having meanignful control of our bodily autonomy - and if you're against them, then it just doesn't make sense to call youself a feminist.

Can seeking to limit women's access to abortion ever be a feminist act?

Yes, when the restrictions put in place are aimed at regulating the safety standards. Unfettered access to 'easy' abortions can lead to a lowering of standards and put women's health at risk.

If you believe a developing foetus is a human life (after n number of weeks), then you're going to face the inevitable issue:

1. The mother has a right to do with her body as she pleases (accepting there are some laws that overrule this).
2. The 'foetus / unborn human' has a right to live (if you are pro-life).

Now, we know that mothers are without doubt 100% sentient human beings, and we debate the validity of the unborn foetus - when does is become a sentient human? does it only gain a right to life after birth? etc.

As things stand, surely we have to err on side of the mother's right to control what happens with her own body?

Now, most people seem able to accept there are some circumstances where abortion is a very understandable course of action (deformity, risk of life to the mother, rape / sexual abuse etc). The issue with pro-life seems to come when the reasons for an abortion appear to be for other reasons. There's a wide gamut of reasons for terminations - from failed contraception, to 'having a child is inconvenient to me' and I believe this is where the pro-life people have the biggest issue - when the right to life for the foetus is overruled by a woman's right to choose, and where that choice appears to be convenience rather than absolute necessity.
In such situations the right to choose is harder to reconcile.

How many women terminate simply because it's a convenient option? very few I would say, but there is certainly a spectrum of reasons where I believe the pro-lifers can cope or can't cope.

Perhaps I'm completely wrong, but with pro-lifers it really does seem to come down to not IF a termination is ok, but WHY...

Sophocles
I think you can be a feminist who does some feminist acts and some non-feminist ones. It’s pretty impossible to be a perfect feminist all the time. Challenging patriarchy is hard work, and most of us pick our battles.
I remove some of my body hair sometimes. That might not be a feminist act (I don’t see how it’s anti feminist though because I’m not forcing other women to remove their body hair) but it doesn’t mean I’m not a feminist. I still have feminist values that I live by.
Having said that, I do think abortion rights are more crucial to feminism than whether or not we remove our body hair

So I'll ask again.

Can seeking to limit women's access to abortion ever be a feminist act?

If yes, how so? How does that liberate women? how does that even make women equal? How does that do anything to advance the cause of equality?

It doesn't.

oint = doubt

I have been adding to the debate but I oint you’ve read any of my posts since you keep asking for explanations that I and others have already posted.

That's not an answer to the question, missy.

You've fudged it.

The same way that discussions about, say, leg shaving always get reframed from "can we talk about how I am a feminist, but I still shave my legs, because try as I might, I can't shake the upbringing that made me think it's kind of icky not to" to "OMG, you're saying that you can't be a feminist if you shave your legs, jesus no wonder nobody wants to be a feminist".

It's disingenous. Feminism is about taking feminist actions. You can call yourself a feminist, but if you're doing things that shit on women, in the full knowledge that they shit on women, then I may very well not agree with your assessment of yourself.

But why should that matter to you? Call yourself a banana milkshake, I don't care. But every time you try to redefine feminism to "whatever a woman does is a feminist act", you de-fang it, and dilute it and it becomes toothless. I care about that.

Absolutely not, IMHO

Well in that case another emma, why don't you add something to the debate instead of being insulting.

I’m getting bored of one person dominating this thread now. It’s just getting repetitive and there is nothing interesting being added to the debate.

To begin with I think the debate was reasonably respectful and posters who disagreed were considering each other’s arguments, for the most part.

Now we are just going around in circles with idiotic repetitive posts demanding explanations that have already been given several times over.

You can’t argue with stupid.

Well you don't have autonomy now..
As I have said and yet to have an answer should adult women be able to consent to FGM? If you don't think so, then I could argue you don't believe in bodily autonomy...

Missy, you can call yourself what you like
But given you wish to remove my right to my own body its hard to see how thats a feminist action
Thats the exact opposite

Lass and wiseup

I tend to avoid that kind of argument. To me it just allows forced birthers to devalue the entire argument, it allows them to go look look evil women abort so late for funzies when they have no facts to back their statement but that gets lost in the emotion of the debate

What if the question was framed as: can seeking to limit abortion ever be a feminist act?

Yes I believe it should be reduced to reflect that babies are born and survive at 23 weeks.

I can still define myself as feminist, who is anyone to say otherwise.
No wonder feminism is losing popularity because its tenants dicate to other woman what views they are allowed to hold. You value human life?, well youre anti woman, pro - forced birth, and other manipulative terms.

*actually I want to rephrase that a bit:

Can seeking to limit women's access to abortion ever be a feminist act?

What if the question was framed as: can seeking to limit abortion ever be a feminist act?

Because the answer to that can't be anything other than NO.

How could it?

People seem to struggle to get their heads around the difference between wanted and unwanted babies.

Women happy to be pregnant versus terrified to be pregnant.

A baby doesn't just go from being wanted to suddenly being unwanted, and therefore aborted at the last minute.

Seriously, some people seem to think women are infantile idiots who don't know their own mind.

Lass, no as most late term abortions are done cos the fetus is defective
Most women dont get to 30 weeks and go eh im done abortion time. So we aint talking a healthy normal fetus here

Right got you. I agree if we are talking about the current position in UK mainland law but some posters are talking about termination at any point regardless of whether there is a defect.

I believe that it is possible to be anti-abortion and feminist.

The language used in the debate is emotive, regardless of what side you're on because it is an emotive issue and their are too many variables to to make the very simplistic statement that Anti-abortion = Non Feminist.

Wiseup, never once have i heard of a woman getting to that late and seeking abortion just cos, they seem to only exist in anti abortion debates
There are always more factors at play, especially since a dr wont do it on a whim

Oh, totally. But there’s a thought experiment going on here, with some posters saying termination on demand up to term is the only feminist position, at the same time as the main “no true feminist” argument.

Most women dont get to 30 weeks and go eh im done abortion time. So we aint talking a healthy normal fetus here

Yes, some of us are.

• yes, and it depends what you define as healthy - the law allows disabled babies, i.e. With Down's syndrome to be aborted upto term regardless of whether they will live or not