Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

She still has to undergo a birth which she may not consent to

She is going to have go through the motions of birthing in an abortion. Or are you suggesting the abortion would be a caeserean under general anaesthetic?

and still has the possibility of a child walking the earth who may or may not come back to haunt her at some point in the future

Well I suppose a pro-lifer would say so what? The child lived - the parent has no legal obligation to have anything to do with it.

lass, an adopted person has the right to know who the birth parents are so that is one difference between abortion at 39 weeks and a live birth. In addition, I assume the physical process may well be different. Women giving birth aren't given the same painkillers as other people because they can harm the foetus whereas if the foetus isn't alive then I presume decent painkillers can be given or general rather than local anaesthetic could be used for CS. I'm not a medical expert tho, so may be talking bollocks!

Wow, those advocating that a woman should be able to kill an unborn baby at 39 weeks because she would rather it didn't "walk the earth" are really helping me to move towards a more pro-life position. Really chilling stuff.

No uterus no opinion, mybrilliantmistake.

If you're opposed to the idea of abortion/abortion past a certain date in the sense that you, personally, would not have one/have one past that date then that's fine and you may well be a feminist. If you've decided that you ought to have the right to determine whether other women are able to get an abortion and you devote endless hours to scolding them for doing so and attempting to instill in them a guilt that they don't feel by talking about crying fetuses in kidney trays, insisting that they must view every abortion as a tragedy, etc, then no, you're not a feminist. You may identify as one, in much the same way Danielle Muscato identifies as a woman, but you're both factually incorrect. It's possible to discuss where the legal limit should be set in terms of how many weeks and what's an achievable goal in that sense without all of the above attempts at emotional manipulation.

In the 39 week situation I can't see it makes any difference to the woman whether the foetus/ baby lives, if it is accepted she has no responsibility to look after it. What right is she losing other than the right to end the life of a baby she does not want?

She still has to undergo a birth which she may not consent to, and still has the possibility of a child walking the earth who may or may not come back to haunt her at some point in the future.
I'm not saying I agree with it, but logically, giving birth comes at a price, even if there's no responsibility of her part. An abortion also comes at a price of course, but that would be her choice to make.

I didn't mention suicide. You did.
The autonomy that is illegal is bodily harm as part of extreme sex (typically BDSM). Consent is not enough in UK law.

39 was an extreme figure but obviously anything above 28 weeks has the same issue.

In the 39 week situation I can't see it makes any difference to the woman whether the foetus/ baby lives, if it is accepted she has no responsibility to look after it. What right is she losing other than the right to end the life of a baby she does not want?

As to whether something is or is not a feminist act I was serious about saying that taking such an extreme position may well not a feminist act. It is fine debating this on MN but I think it would be detrimental to argue this position at say a select committee.

It is a political movement for the liberation of women.
There isn't a political movement on earth where all its members agree on the correct policies to achieve their goals, or on the morality of its members.

I don't think so. It was said that to be a feminist you must believe in bodily autonomy- clearly in law there are cases where you don't have autonomy, and I don't believe you should either. The conclusion is that belief in bodily autonomy is not fundamental to feminism. If you believe in he type of feminsim that doesn't endorse porn, prostitution - then you absolutely don't believe in autonomy.

Thank you for your example of reducto ad absurdum, missymoo, which is where these conversations always go.

Suicide is no longer a crime in the UK, Brilliant.

Squeakums-
As I said, and other added...
FGM for consenting adults- I see you agree with this
But these....
Wilful grievous assault with consent
Illegal drugs
Prostitution
Do you think the law should be remove to allow bodily autonomy I'm these cases, if it's so important.
Then as jemima added
Porn
Page 3
Etc....
If you say autonomy is absolute you cannot place restriction on anyone, everything is allowable, even if they are harming themselves or indirectly others.

Feminism is not an identity. It is a political movement for the liberation of women. There is a body of work by women to support and explain this.
I keep saying this and people keep saying no, anyone who says they are a feminist is a feminist even though their policies are anti feminist and they have no clue what the tenets of feminism are.

If you wish to slice and dice your own morality you are entitled to do so. Others have a right to do the same.
The repeated claims that women have abortions for frivolous reasons clearly reveal you as an anti feminist no matter what you call yourself.
It reminds me of what we say when the when the women picketing the clinic show up for their appointment. The only moral abortion is my abortion.

I think MissyMoo's point on autonomy is that it's a theoretical autonomy over your own body, but in reality we have laws that overrule your own personal choice to do as you wish with your own body.
You are not actually free (in UK law) to do absolutely anything you like to your own body. It's a technical point, but I think that's what she's arguing.

The science about the ability of a foetus to feel pain is mixed. Most scientist currently believe at 24 weeks a foetus is not yet 'aware' or sentient. But of course, it's a particularly difficult thing to measure and scientists are still studying. There are some reflex actions at 24 weeks, but it's not clear if pain is felt.

The long and short of it seems to be that there's obviously a transition / growth from nothing to a human life, but where one ends and another starts is still in debate.

I don't think pro-life and feminism are mutually exclusive. I see pro-life as a defense of those who cannot defend themselves, but that's all based on the premise that a foetus is a life. IF you believe a foetus is a life, or that it is one after n weeks, then logically, you're caught between a rock and a hard place trying to defend a woman's right to choose but also defend the right to live. They aren't mutually exclusive desires though.
If you believe the foetus isn't a human being, then sure, it's a lot easier to resolve and the woman's right to choose is clear as day.

Missymoo100
Well you don't have autonomy now..
As I have said and yet to have an answer should adult women be able to consent to FGM? If you don't think so, then I could argue you don't believe in bodily autonomy.

Well actually i do, every woman just the other ways aint safe.

If thats the womans choice for HER body then why not, its her body. I wouldnt object to a woman getting implants, splitting their tounge or any other body mod.
FGM is bad when its done against ones will, like is the case in general. Im one who thinks that an adult male should be allowed to circumcise but a parent shouldnt choose for the child, that removes their bodily autonomy (barring medical need for it obviously)

The difference is almost always whether or not the baby is going to suffer agonies and then die. 39 week abortions are so rare as to be impossible to generalise about. But I think that the rights of the woman outemweigh the rights of the foetus. At any time.

Lass-
What those who support abortion to term for any or no reason can't or won't answer is what is the difference between a woman being induced to give birth at 39 weeks, where at some point in that process the life of the foetus must be ended, and a woman giving birth to a baby at 39 weeks if there is no compulsion or coercion therafter to be a mother to the foetus or child?

Yes, this^ .. I don't think I've ever heard anyone try to even answer this question without side stepping it.

Really agree with last few posts-
Bodily autonomy is not an absolute given because it gives power to the individual to usurp the views of society at large. This is the basis of law and order, that an individual can't just do what they want, "because it's my body"-because that can be extremely destructive to the individual and to everyone else.

Jemima,

That is correct. It also supports the legalisation of all drugs. Why should the state interfere with my autonomy to inject heroin into my veins?

Having thought about it, I go back on my previous statement and can see how in some cases, limiting access to abortion may be a feminist act.

Can seeking to limit women's access to abortion ever be a feminist act?

No, I don't think so. But that doesn't mean that the woman who does so can't be a feminist.

In addition, if it is believed that "bodily autonomy for women" at all costs, and in every case, is a core principle of feminism, it logically follows that feminists MUST support legalisation of prostitution and that campaigning against grid girls / pornography / page 3 is an anti-feminist act because it impinges the bodily autonomy of women who want to do those jobs.

sophocles, I agree that it isn't possible to be a perfect feminist but the question last night seemed to become whether belief in "abortion to term for whatever reason" is a central core requirement to be a feminist. There is space for a range of views, especially in nuanced debates, but for a political movement / philosophy like feminism the cope principles have to be held by the majority in order for the word to have any meaning.

After last night's discussion I actually looked up the statistics I questioned and, it turns out, 7% of people describe themselves as feminist (Fawcett society) and 1% of people support abortion to term (ComRes poll upthread). So approximately 85% of feminists do not support abortion to term. On that basis, I would say that "abortion to term" is not a core belief of feminism.