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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Have you been publicly gender critical?

41 replies

SwearyG · 25/02/2018 18:39

I'm considering "coming out" as gender critical ahead of the WPUK meeting on Tuesday to suggest that my friends attend the meeting too as I really think we need to debate, discuss and push back against what is being said by the TRAs. I've tried it in person a few times and most people have taken what I've said quite well, with my younger friends doing mental gymnastics to keep TIMs as women in their heads, though they can't accept my anorexia analogy on that.

So I've written a lengthly post for Facebook saying that people need to think about the rollback of women's rights in the name of progression and how the opportunity to talk is coming on Tuesday but am not quite brave enough to press post. Has anyone done this with any success or is it best to keep fighting anonymously?

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Camomila · 25/02/2018 21:05

I say 'publicly' I've mainly chatted to DM and DH about it...I don't like getting into fb arguments Blush but would happily have a rl life discussion!

Camomila · 25/02/2018 21:03

Yes...but my only 'work' is as a p/t sociology student. If you can't discuss gender in a sociology seminar then where can you!?
One of the boys made a gender critical related point in a seminar last week...re how fear of offence meant someone at another uni couldnt get approval to study detransitioning individuals. I think people are starting to get annoyed about academic freedom being curtailed.

rememberthetime · 25/02/2018 20:59

I find most people I know don't even think about it at all. it just isn't on their radar until it affects them. As yet, it hasn't.

The only people I have been able to talk to are my teenage children. My son is open to lots of new ideas and beleives nothing until he's researched it for himself. That's good.

My daughter is very critical of people who suggest harm can come from sharing spaces - but agrees with issues relating to sport and fairness.

nicentoasty · 25/02/2018 20:52

I've shared a few moderately-worded articles on Facebook with comments along the lines that we need to have a proper discussion about this and find a solution that works for everyone and can protect both trans people and women etc. Hopefully it will make people start to think about some of the pitfalls of the proposed legislation and that, yes, we should actually have an open debate on the subject.

I've had a few 'likes' which tend to be from the same people and no actual comments so either other people aren't seeing my posts, they don't care about the issue, they don't want to risk being associated with gender critical views or they've mentally filed me under the 'bigot' category but don't want to get into an argument about it.

I was concerned about posting about this subject as I have a number of (nice, non-TRA) trans friends on Facebook and I wouldn't want them to think I was opposed to them - although one of the people who always likes my posts and is very openly anti-self-ID on her own timeline is a transwoman.

QuentinSummers · 25/02/2018 20:28

I posted a link to one of Glosswitches GC article on Facebook, tumbleweed. Another friend who's GC liked it but nothing else.
However have talked to lots of women one to one and they are often very unhappy with the trans movement (not trans people).
The ones who are trans allies would rather not discuss it at all.

thebewilderness · 25/02/2018 20:28

Facebook stopped letting me use this nick name so I have been "out" for a year or so now. I am an old 2nd wave Feminist and there is nothing they can do to me any more.
This is what I ask when the subject comes up.
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex, and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?
How will you punish women who refuse to submit to male dominance?

Ouchbirthhurted · 25/02/2018 20:26

I usually start by saying I know some trans people and am very much pro their right to live safely and happily and without ridicule, bullying etc.

Then I tell them that some trans people are concerned about Self-ID too and that got me thinking. I explain the definition of trans seems hugely wide, and show a range of pictures so people can understand what trans might be ie not transexual, which most people assume.

I explain the current law already allows transition, even without an op, which people are surprised about. And then I talk about how I'm unsure about how safeguarding will work - i.e. How do you know someone is trans vs someone untrustworthy saying they are a woman.

I also often share that I thought really hard about whether I was being transphobic to question this but realised I was concerned because of the HUGE issues for women - sport fairness, safety etc. And send them here.

KochabRising · 25/02/2018 20:14

WTAF is a 'trans ally frame' and why would anyone question you not having one?

Urrrh. So on fb you have a profile picture. Every so often fb invites you to ‘frame’ this picture in a short lived (few weeks usually) overlay of whatever the current issue du jour is. So for aids awareness you might have a red ribbon frame, for the Paris terririst attacks it was a tricolour overlay,

They are basically a way of virtue signalling. And I don’t do them (my profile pic is of an inanimate object.) I also don’t take kindly to being pressed to put one up.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 25/02/2018 20:11

Yes, very much so. I'm in university (liberal arts degree) and the issue has come up a few times this year, but I will politely and firmly challenge the notion of the female penis etc. My family are all terf-tastic to a person and are also openly critical of transactivism.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 25/02/2018 20:07

WTAF is a 'trans ally frame' and why would anyone question you not having one?

Disclaimer - not on FB.

Ledkr · 25/02/2018 20:06

I made the mistake of starting to air my views but it became pretty clear that they aren't popular so I did shut up
I think people are focussed being non judgmental and tolerant of diversity and so not open to hearing about the reality of the situation.

TERFousBreakdown · 25/02/2018 19:48

Very selectively. I'm in a professional career, so I've got to watch who I get controversial with - on any subject.

My radfem Lesbian friend knows - she's very much on my page. I've had a chat with my professional mentor in the context of his daughter getting more serious about her sport and considering a career in it. He started out thinking it really didn't matter but ended up completely outraged when I was able to come up with some examples and tied them in with how this could disadvantage his child in the future.

I have a work colleague who I strongly suspect is gender critical and I'd love to have 'the chat' with her but I'm not sure how to broach the subject. I'm more senior, so I guess I'll have to take the first step as per the unspoken rules of not accidentally committing career-suicide.

SwearyG · 25/02/2018 19:47

I've started very simply with pointing out how women's rights are being eroded by ideas considered progressive and we're being closed down from debating it by threats of violence etc and how important the debate is. I've not said anything personal yet - I think the anorexia point is best made in person. So far responses are positive Smile

Going back to the anorexia point a pp suggested that the dysphoria thing doesn't work so well as current transgenders are told their body is fine as the opposite sex so I'll add in that nothing was affirmative in my therapy. Thank you (sorry can't scroll back as on phone so can't see who it was)

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Ouchbirthhurted · 25/02/2018 19:41

Yes, there is nothing wrong with having gender critical beliefs, it is a free country.

Those of you not speaking out what is it you are afraid will happen? Surely this isn't a sackable offence - what would possibly be sackable about it?

moofolk · 25/02/2018 19:40

Yes I've had a few online shitstorms. Some people really annoyed me, some now think I'm an awful person, but worth all this is that I have women coming up to me in the street fascinated to find out more, old friends have contacted me to get involved with activism and I have prompted thought and debate.
Friends from all walks of life have peaked and got involved. Many offline conversations have been had and people thank me for it.
So do it. However I'd recommend holding off on your anorexia analogy, for your own sake. Some people can be unkind in this debate so consider not leaving yourself open straight away. Then judge whether to bring it in later.
I'd advise to go for something not too controversial to start with or everything gets polarised straight away.

KochabRising · 25/02/2018 19:37

And well done OP. I hope you reach a few minds

KochabRising · 25/02/2018 19:36

DOESNT have a trans ally frame. :)

I don’t frame for any bugger, and I don’t appreciate being pressed to virtue signal.

KochabRising · 25/02/2018 19:35

I have replied to other postings outlining my concerns. So for example if asked why my profile picture does have a trans ally frame (ffs) I will politely point out that ‘I’m very much in favour of safety and freedom from the threat of violence for all, and as a woman, women’s rights are very important to me. I support everyone’s right to be safe from violence and fear. I also support women’s rights to be free from violence and fear. I consider self ID to be misguided and to have multiple potential negative impacts on women, for example threatening women’s protection from discrimination at work and in life generally. Then I tend to launch into a rather worthy discussion on the equality act.

It’s a woolly statement, and it’s hard to argue with, because of you read it and tell me I’m a bigot I will come back with asking you why you don’t support women’s rights. ;)

I wouldn’t post something actively denouncing trans as a status. I tend to keep FB as a family sharing thing (expat, good to keep in touch) so it for me would be the wrong platform.
I will however respond in a polite and logical ways if prodded.

So far it’s worked well. Literally everyone has said ‘oh, I hadn’t thought of that.’

No you hadn’t, but now maybe you will.

OrderOnline · 25/02/2018 19:31

It's done politicians nor the Trans community any good. Nobody gave the Trans community any interest, now they are a laughing stock, which wasn't my intention, as I take the issue seriously. Friends and family are also going to spoil their papers, they say they are not voting for fools who think men can get pregnant, who are scared of a few people Tweeting, behaving like toddlers banging wooden spoons on pans and beating up women.

NotTerfNorCis · 25/02/2018 19:26

Sort of. My family and OH are very aware of my beliefs, and concur. People at work also find the new gender ideology ridiculous. But I wouldn't dare mention it on Facebook. I also have an old friend who has drifted from right-wing to left over the years, and when I tentatively broached the subject with him, it was clear he hadn't thought it through and might have called me a bigot if I'd pushed it further. So I pulled back.

SwearyG · 25/02/2018 19:24

Only response so far from DH saying we’re all gender non conforming and it’s not for women to budge up and make space for men who don’t fit the toxic masculinity box.

I’ve had conversations with my closest friends about them and one disagrees with m vehemently but we are still close (we don’t mention it, much like my parents and Brexit).

I figure people have to stick their head above the parapet on this, especially because we’re being intimidated into silence. And anyone who gets uppity isn’t a real friend. All I’m doing is saying we have to talk about this and saying the WPUK talk is happening.

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weebarra · 25/02/2018 19:18

I've spoken to lots of people about it. At work, it's difficult. I work with young people and for a quango, so I can't be as critical as I would like to be.

GardenGeek · 25/02/2018 19:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Arapaima · 25/02/2018 19:16

Have you had any responses yet OP?

MangoSplit · 25/02/2018 19:15

I’ve spoken to lots of people about this, so all my friends know how I feel, including my brother who is very pro trans rights. Luckily we haven’t fallen out over it!

I shared the Scottish consultation thingummy by email.

I don’t mention it at work though.