Government announcement on petition to ban medical intervention to change gender for under 18s

I did find something. I'm not massively reassured by this statement though, and certainly don't read it as "puberty blockers are harmless and completely reversible"...

"There is reassuring evidence that gonadal function is reactivated soon after cessation of treatment. Again, the information is confined mainly to females. Mean time to menarche post-treatment is 16 months with normal pattern of menses"

www.eje-online.org/content/159/suppl_1/S3.full.pdf

Is it? I've not been able to find proper research or information
That's probably because there hasn't been any proper research or information. These children are guinea pigs for an untested theory.

Puberty blockers have been used for for children with premature puberty, and children are taken off them at the stage when puberty would normally start. There are some side effects, and these have been documented, and have to be weighed against the effects of early puberty.

The same drugs have also been prescribed to treat endometriosis and growth problems in children.

In all cases, side effects have been reported, and there are several law suits pending in the US.

I am no expert Endocrinology but most hormonal systems work on a trigger/feedback system.

Much like lactation in women is usually triggered by the specific pattern of hormones that occur during pregnancy and birth, but if that process is interrupted or augmented (prem-birth) then lactation can be difficult to establish and in some cases impossible, I suspect that if the process if initiating puberty is interrupted then there will also some for whom re-activating it is difficult and perhaps in some cases, also impossible.

I would want to be 100% sure that puberty would just automatically kick back in if they desisted before stop cling an eleven year old on them that’s for certain.

SnibbleAgain - yes to what you are saying. And even if blockers didn't cause persistence and some of the young people on them desisted - what then? A puberty unnecessarily delayed that puts them behind their peers in terms of development. This will be awful for them going forwards.

I was confused about difference between blockers and actual hormones and it seems like lots are.

It seems you still are, Mummybear.

Sorry repeating much of previous post but in a more long winded way!

There is the point about "legal" children as well, that was mentioned earlier on. To have a 16 / 18yo with the body and thought processes of a child.... That sounds like someone that certain people would be very keen get their hands on.

Children are very trusting, they are easy to exploit. This is why we safeguard them, but our safeguards are built around age, unless there is mental incapacity. In these cases, how will it work? It's like something off black mirror.

There is also the point that puberty changes have the effect that in this household we call "teenageryness" - a vital part of growing up, developing independence, separrating from family, etc. A massive PITA while it is happening, but a key part of growing up.

These kids on puberty blockers- it's not just their bodies it's their brains as well. They aren't getting doused in a hormonal soup telling them that their parents are so embarrassing they never want to be seen near them, that developing and feeding obsessions with is an important way to spend your time, that sleep patterns need to change, that there are people out there to fancy wildly, and possibly that some risk-taking behaviour might be nice.

To STOP that and keep your child always as a child - that sounds appealing, in a way?

For the children who have this - they are still children in their heads, they haven't experienced this stuff, so how can they know if they want it? Pre pubescent children aren't interested in sex, they don't fancy people, not like older children and adults do, in fact many of them find the idea baffling and disgusting.

So. This really disturbs me. The mind is childlike as well as the body.

Yep I'm convinced that's it siren. There is something in the brain development at that age that allows kids to grow up, gain perspective, understand their sexuality and (in 80%+ of cases) reconcile with their birth sex. Kids who don't go through puberty don't get the chance to grow out of it. It pauses their mental as well as physical development.

Of course we can't be certain as there has been no actual research but it's a sound hypothesis.

even newborn baby boys have erections so surely Jazz has experienced that

Oh, come on. There's a difference between a baby boy getting a proto-erection and an older boy getting an erection that could lead to orgasm and semen production. Jazz Jennings has never - and will never - experience the latter, a vital component of human sexuality, because Jazz was on blockers at 10 and hormones a few years later.

I do believe it's related to blockers affecting brain development. Without the maturation of the brain that happens in puberty, the child doesn't have the opportunity to develop the correct internal perception of themselves.

Is it? I've not been able to find proper research or information. Would a child who was put on blockers at 11/12/13/14 be able to come off them at 19/20/21/22 and go through regular puberty? I had thought that length of time on the drugs and the age at which you gone off them affected how the body reacted.

My sister was on PB over 30 years ago due to many medical conditions. It was controversial then, the doctor wanted to try delay her going through puberty as he felt it was adversely impacting all her other medical conditions (all autoimmune related), and my mum had a hard time deciding as she didn't get any information about side effects.

She was on it less than a year (6 months I seem to remember) and she did not start regular puberty after coming off the nedication. After a year she was then given a drug to see if she would go through puberty (medication caused her to have her period). She was told that because her period started after the medication she sound eventually go through puberty and she did, it was just delayed.

I am interested to know the true impact of PBs. I guess research in this area, on humans, would be problematic and sparse.

My understanding was children can only get puberty blockers before 16 (reversible apparently), sex hormones after 16 and surgery after 18. Sounds reasonable to me. Keeping a child pre pubertal up to 16 would not be done lightly. And any of those things require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, not a young person or parents say so.

This is technically correct but misses the elephant in the room. Prescription of blockers leads to persistence.100% of minors prescribed blockers go on to cross sex hormones. Blockers create an irreversible trans pathway.

Without blockers, 80% of minors desist.

I think that is probably correct. stopping the blockers will start the natural puberty.

It's when cross sex hormones are introduced that changes it.

And statistically something like 99% of children on blockers will go on to cross sex hormones.

Which is why the side-effects of puberty blockers cant be significantly studied . There are not enough children who come off them.

Every show or documentary about trans kids peddles the myth that puberty blockers are 100% reversible. The children and parents seem to think that if their child comes off the puberty blockers at any stage then they will go through puberty as normal.

Perhaps someone can answer question for me?

Presumably it's the influx of hormones that create an adult libido?

So if you are denied the hormones of your sex, in this case male hormones, does that mean your adult libido never materialises?

Would hormones of the opposite sex give you a libido generally associated with women, for instance? I.e. not testosterone lead.

Or do the puberty blockers effectively forever block that libido from emerging, as they work on the suppression of sex characteristics generally.

relaxitllbeok

I did know that. I have two sons!

I don't watch the I am jazz TV programme. Apparently it was on there.

Presumably it meant an erection in terms of libido induced masturbation. Or maybe one that was sufficient for penetrative sex?

Ugh, it feels wrong even speculating.

I think he had tried masturbation, and it hadn't 'worked'.

As I said, that's secondhand information because I can't bring myself to watch the programme.

Umm, I don't have the evidence to hand, but I'm fairly sure that routine operation on intersex babies doesn't happen anymore? Not in the UK, anyway...

@Datun , even newborn baby boys have erections so surely Jazz has experienced that! (If you didn't know that, you're far from alone...)

Polly I completely agree. I think the lawsuits from these children will ruin the NHS

Not entirely on topic, but I’ve taken lupron in the context of assisted fertility and it made me feel like shit. My emotions were all over the place and I had very little focus. That was over a 2 week period. I can’t imagine taking it for longer.

I read recently the blog of a mother whose daughter was taking lupron to block puberty. In order to try to protect against the side effect of losing bone density, they gave her a small amount of testosterone. Unfortunately the father got the dose wrong and massively overdosed the daughter, thus sterilising her at age 11. The parents were upset, but since their 11 year old child had told them she didn’t want kids anyway they thought it would be ok. This dabbling with drugs off label is revolting and will provide ripe ground for lawsuits in the future. It feels like the Wild West to me, a bit like the private fertility industry (although at least there I was a consenting adult).

busyboysmum

It's too late for jazz. The blockers blocked his male puberty, then the cross sex hormones gave him breasts and a curvy figure.

But his penis remains that of a prepubescent boy.

Nothing to be done about that.

The cross sex hormones don't give you a female reproductive system.

Which is why they are now in a quandary. Because there's not enough material to create a neovagina.

As for as I know, he's never had an erection, or an orgasm. Because the genitals aren't developed enough.

But the part that is really scandalous, is his doctors, on air, seemed surprised at the outcome.

Bloody surprised.

I really wish someone would investigate it.

Because, it looks as though this boy, is not only permanently sterile, and on lifelong medication, but his sex life is fucked.

A decision, which is mother insists was his, and made the age of 11.

And this teenager has got everyone telling him he's an inspiration, he is feted and celebrated wherever he goes. Not to mention being solely responsible for his entire family's livelihood.

The pressure on him is profound.

Do we know if for example Jazz in America could go off the drugs and develop normally as a man if he wanted to? Or is it too late? Does anyone know?

@BigDeskBob I wonder how the medical profession know what the long term effects of puberty blockers are on children? In the past they have been given for a short time to pause early puberty, not to halt in the long term.

They don't! Puberty blockers are powerful chemotherapy drugs that are approved for use for treating serious conditions like prostrate cancer. Their use to trans kids is off label, not supported by experimental evidence.

Their off-label use in precocious puberty has produced loads of complications:
www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/
Side effects seem to include reduction in IQ, just what you'd want for your kid! (Men who take it for prostrate cancer use the term "lupron brain" to refer to memory loss and cognitive decline.)

So what we're witnessing is a massive uncontrolled experiment on hundreds of children in the UK, and many thousands elsewhere.

According to the transgender identifying male teens I have spoken with they are convinced that the puberty blockers and hormones will mean they will look feminine and not require as much facial surgery to look the way they want to.

Most girls will have finished puberty by 15 (although they may grow and fill out a little more).

Boys have more development after that. They fill out, and most guys don't completely stop growing till they are 19-20.