Evidence of misandry on Feminist chat.

Bertrand, I don't profess to have all the answers, but I look at all the Feminist vs MRA, Trans vs Radfem battles that seem to be so prevalent in recent years and I feel that hate isn't the answer. There does seem to be a lot of hate within feminism and, although likely justified, I don't think it really helps achieve the broader goals which would probably make for a better existence for both sexes.

Prat- how do you think the problem should be approached?

i'd like an answer to this too.

Women trying to protect other women are going about it the wrong way.

How should we do it then?

How many times does a woman have to be the victim of male violence before she’s allowed to have an opinion beyond namalt?

It’s not hypothetical for some people so it seems really oppressive to tell them they need to couch their lived experience in inclusive language. Not all men, but too many men.

Prat- how do you think the problem should be approached?

it's because the other 93% actually like men, the vast majority of whom are decent human beings

Oh good lord

Not heard of it but sounds very interesting. I think there's a certain sort of nihilism in many young men these days which likely helps to fuel errant behaviour.

Has anyone heard of Rebel Wisdom?

www.rebelwisdom.co.uk/

It seems to be a promising men's movement in terms of personal development and owning masculinity and reclaiming it or perhaps redefining it in terms of allies and supporters of women.

Prat-tell me how you think the honest discussion between the sexes will work, and what you think the outcome should be?

Making sexist jibes about "small penises" certainly isn't going to help you be taken seriously.

The problem is that only 7% of women in this country want to join you and I often wonder if it's because the other 93% actually like men, the vast majority of whom are decent human beings.

Do you really want to effect change of just use this as an opportunity to demean men?

I think the issue is best approached through honest discussion between the sexes

I think the issue is best approached by women organising among themselves to influence policy and legislation that will better protect them and to provide services and education for each other that help them avoid the arseholes among the male population.

I don't give a shit what the men think. They can organise among themselves to promote better behaviour so that they improve their overall reputation with women. Not my problem if they don't do that and women say rude things about them thus shrinking their tiny penises. Only the arsehole men get upset about women organising without them. Why should I give a toss for the arseholes?

I'm talking

Quentin, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to stop a very small minority of people committing murder unless we are able to implement some manner of Black Mirror-esque technology, but the rape issue is likely best tackled through cooperation than divisiveness IMHO. Many feminists are very divisive and I don't think it really helps. For many I think it seems more like a book club for whingers than a collection of people with a genuine desire to change things - in talking about the 'trendy' social media types here.

“Discussion of how to approach the problem obviously”

How do you think it should be approached?

Discussion of how to approach the problem obviously. I find a lot of feminist rhetoric to be very "shut up and listen" and this doesn't help get men onboard which would likely be a huge benefit in tackling the problem. Studies show that even most women don't want to identify as feminist and I think it's this publicity problem that curtails genuine discussion.

“I think the issue is best approached through honest discussion between the sexes rather than hyperbole and attempts to shame all men into hanging their heads for the actions of a small minority“

Discussion of what between the sexes?

prat
What do you think cam be done to prevent 2 women a week being killed by men, 85000 people a year being raped by men and the vast majority of women being sexually assaulted or harassed in their lifetime?

X post...

That's not what I said.

However, a general disdain for men would likely have an impact on one's sympathy towards that group. Just like a staunch racist would likely be less sympathetic towards the rights of an ethnic minority.

I don't agree with self ID, however.

One interesting thing that these figures show is that while it is men who are committing these crimes and it is plenty of men - far too many men - committing these crimes, there are also many men who are not. The victims of sexual crimes and harassment are also overwhelming women. This means that many men are not aware of how much of this is going on as they are neither the victim or the perpetrator. We all know that we are much more likely to get the low level, common or garden everyday types of harassment when we are alone or in a women only group. I think this leads to far too many perfectly nice men thinking that we over react, exaggerate and over report. They just don’t experience it - not as a victim or a perpetrator. It only takes one man to victimise dozens of women. That means there are dozens of men who think ‘I would never consider doing anything like that and I have never seen it happening so if you are saying it happens all the time you must be exaggerating for effect and to make men look bad’.

Do me a favour.
Feminists have a problem with men saying they're women....
Now this is misadrist as well as transphobic!

I think another interesting discussion would be the extent to which misandry plays a part in feminists' attitudes towards the trans debate as it certainly seems to be a more contentious issue for them than for the majority of women who don't identify as feminists.

Almost half of male college surveyed admitted coercing a partner into sex. Almost all coercive behaviours listed met the legal definition of rape (Ok this is in America but I we are very similar to them)...

I'm not sure that using an extremely small cross section of respondents from another country qualifies the statement that more than 1% of UK men cause problems - especially as the study is talking about teenagers coercing fellow teenagers into sex, not UK men murdering their spouses.

I'm not downplaying the evil that some men do, but as I said before it's a vanishingly small proportion of men that do this. If we're going to talk about rape in America then we could do worse than to consider the view of RAINN who are possibly the world authority on rape with over 1000 rape crisis centres. Their opinion seems to stack up against mine in many ways.

RAINN urged the task focus to remain focused on the true cause of the problem. “In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime,”

Last sentence definitely sounds like a resounding NAMALT, and seems to refute the suggestion that rape is committed by "ordinary men who just go a bit far" which was another assertion on here which I was going to mention as an example of misandry - not sure if that thread is still around.

I think the issue is best approached through honest discussion between the sexes rather than hyperbole and attempts to shame all men into hanging their heads for the actions of a small minority.

"Shoplifting is not a victimless crime. It pushes prices up, penalising the poorest in society."
I agree with you. But is that really the first thing you took from this discussion?

I still think there is something 'different' about men that are violent than other men

Yes. And that is exactly why women are constantly performing inner risk assessments while men aren't. Because the "different" explodes on random women who just happen to be there, while it explodes on men in specific situations. "Different" men don't beat up other men randomly in train carriages. They beat up other men when they have a specific conflict with that specific man. "Different" men do assault women they don't know in train carriages.

And it's exactly why many women's risk assessment spidey sense goes off with great big alarm bells when the weirdo TIM gets a stiffy in the changing rooms - he is one of those "different" men because he has no idea he is breaching boundaries and consent. He actually thinks he is a lesbian and if any woman even looks as though she doesn't believe that, she is at risk.

I still think there is something 'different' about men that are violent than other men and whilst I agree that men commit more crimes, I also think identifying the groups of men more likely to commit crimes is useful.

Not useful for an individual women boarding a train as she can't really conduct a whole load of background checks, so she'll just have to pick the carriage with more women in it as that's the easiest broad-brush technique for minimising her risk - but useful at a societal level.