Evidence of misandry on Feminist chat.

One thing I would take slight issue with upthread is the idea that men do not walk around having to risk-assess other random men. Let me assure you that at least some of us do (perhaps not in every situation all the time, but I'm afraid often enough).

I would, then, suggest that you try to imagine what it might be like to have to do that in every situation all the time. I get it that there are times men also feel at risk but it is orders of magnitude greater for women.

Do you need to do a risk assessment so ingrained that you barely realise you are doing it every time a man sits next to you on public transport? Or any time a man you don't know speaks to you, even if it is a public place? Or any time you go to a public toilet where there is a corridor including the men's and ladies doors separate from the public area? How often do you cross the street to avoid walking past a man or to check that a man isn't following you? The list is endless. And we women have to do that so automatically that, as I said, it's hard to imagine being someone who doesn't have to do that.

That is the point. As I said before, it's not "all men", it's "all places men are".

I recognise you are trying though - thanks!

“What do you think we should be doing Bertrand?“
This is what I said earlier..”I DO expect them to speak up about male violence to other men and make it clear they find it unacceptable. I expect them to educate their boys in how to manage emotion and frustration. I expect them to speak out when other men make rape jokes. I expect them them to reject porn and prostitution. I expect them to DO SOMETHING!!!”

I think those are good points bear
It's hard for me to suggest anything as I don't really know for sure what convos/behaviours happen in groups of men. I'd hope that men would call out sexism and misogyny in groups but I don't know if they actually do.
Mind you, birds of a feather flock together so maybe good guys don't hang round with arseholes and vice versa.

Cue the ad hominem attacks and fingers in ears...

I was responding to a question of what I thought should be done.

Ignore the inconvenient truth if you want, but sadly the general public outside of this very idiosyncratic sphere are unlikely to do so.

I'm willing to bet that this is why the words 'misandry' and 'feminism' are so often raised in the same discussion.

I suggest we all just ignore him.

Much as men should challenge misogynistic behaviour, I think feminists should challenge misandric behaviour amongst their ranks.

People like MisandryMermaid and her 'male tears' mugs don't really help the credibility of what is a genuine cause and what worries me is that many youngsters are more likely to be exposed to this type of Tumblr feminism than they are to venture into forums like this one where intelligent discourse takes place.

Incidentally, I realise that these suggestions are entirely mundane, but that's the sad thing: the problem is on one level a fucking banal one. It's not like we're trying to cure smallpox or send someone to the moon.

I think it comes down to doing what we can to change attitudes by way of education (with a focus on younger people), and effective enforcement against those who step out of line (with an emphasis on the latter - men on the whole know when they're acting like pricks). The granularity of that - I really don't know. There's certainly some good stuff happening but it clearly isn't enough.

But at the end of the day I do think it comes down to individual morality, and the onus on each of us is not to be an arsehole on an individual level. Socialisation and all that, but men aren't an homogenous group, and plenty of us manage to conduct ourselves within reasonable parameters despite the influences around us.

What do you think we should be doing Bertrand?

"But I'm reluctant to venture too much here because I don't want to be seen to be telling women how to do feminism - I know that goes down like a led balloon here and can understand why"

You don't have to tell women how to do feminism. Policing male behaviour shouldn't be the work of feminists. I want to know what men think they should do about it.

1. Do you believe them?

Yes, of course. I've experienced both as a man so it would be obtuse for me not to believe it happened to women. Also, whilst I don't think it's a competition, I have no difficulty believing that it's on average worse for women than men.

2. If you do, what do you think should be done about it?

(i) not act like an arsehole towards women
(ii) call out other men when they are acting like arseholes towards women (where it is safe and reasonable to do so)

Beyond that, on a structural level, I'm not sure. As a broad brush proposition I believe the state does more good than harm, so I'd like to see proper policing and punishments for crimes against women. I recognise that soft approaches have their place too but I think in the final analysis compulsion is the only thing some of these fuckers will listen to. But I'm reluctant to venture too much here because I don't want to be seen to be telling women how to do feminism - I know that goes down like a led balloon here and can understand why.

So, Prat. What needs to be done?

2. If you do, what do you think should be done about it?

I'm not a man, but I don't know the answer to this.
On this board, the answer given is often "men should just stop doing it".
But that doesn't seem to be working.
The men who don't do it, don't do it. And the men who do do it, don't stop doing it.

My principle point could probably be condensed down to the argument that misandry doesn't really help the feminist cause in any way.

Has anyone suggested otherwise?

For what it's worth, I do think there are occasional posts that cross the line into 'misandry' (if such a thing exists). It doesn't really bother me - at the end of the day, it's punching upwards rather than punching downwards, and within certain parameters, I think it's fair game. If this place was genuinely hate-fuelled as the likes of Prat would have us believe then there would be far more vitriol.

I wasn't trying to be goady in my earlier posts. My principle point could probably be condensed down to the argument that misandry doesn't really help the feminist cause in any way.

Aside from that, I probably have similar ideals to many feminists in the outcomes I'd like to see (as opposed to those who would rather women remained subjugated, for instance).

Ok. This is for any men on here.

Lots of women are saying that they have all experienced anything from low level harassment to actual physical violence from men.

1. Do you believe them?
2. If you do, what do you think should be done about it?

I think the reason prat name changed says more about prat than it does about this board

I think concentrating on murder as the bar for violence is utterly bizarre.

Yes, me too. Very strange and not something I have seen before, though a 'different' tactic for sure.

Thanks bear

I too find it bizarre that anything less than murder doesn't need to be focussed on. I suspect if Prat were one of the 12000 (iirc) British men who are raped a year, he'd consider differently.
I also find it bizarre that the majority of men are apparently alienated by these bitchy angry feminists, and yet, as Prat say, most women don't describe themselves as feminists (men have after all done a good job of making feminism into a dirty word). You'd think these men that like non-feminist women would attempt to challenge violence for their sake, if not for the sake of feminists, who after all, get what they deserve...

Pratcather, if you want a three point plan on how to help, you could try:

(i) not act like an arsehole towards women
(ii) call out other men when they are acting like arseholes towards women (where it is safe and reasonable to do so)
(iii) don't go onto feminist message boards to piss over their chips for your own diversion and amusement

Give it a try. If every man did that, things would improve a hundredfold overnight. Up to you if you want to be part of the problem or of the solution.

So, we're back to "women, just be nicer. If only you were just nicer everything be fine" Funny how we always end up there.

So do I, Terftastic. For the sake of disclosure, I am male.

I do happen to think that the majority of men are at least halfway decent, but in no would I say it is a vast majority, and to say that only 1% of men are capable of violence is palpable bollocks.

One thing I would take slight issue with upthread is the idea that men do not walk around having to risk-assess other random men. Let me assure you that at least some of us do (perhaps not in every situation all the time, but I'm afraid often enough).

*oops

That was meant to read either you think there is a problem with male violence or not.