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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please help advise and shape a Campaign for the Right to Choose Sex Segregation... Basil?

113 replies

GuardianLions · 22/02/2018 13:56

After discussing on other threads the problems of
-using the language,
-reacting to the advances and
-responding to the priorities and concerns of those who seek to abolish women's rights - in other words, allowing MRAs and TRAs set the terms of the debate, there is a risk we are not taking the opportunity to set out our own demands.

So I thought we could set one out.

I brought together some thought and discussion on MN to create a document, setting out a simple demand for the 'Right to Choose Sex Segregation' - a right that is clearly being taking away from us by letting people opt into the services and facilities designated for the opposite sex. Many thanks to everyone who has responded with suggestions/corrections so far.

This doesn't cover the worrying transing of kids deliberately, in order to keep a clear focus of its aims.

It also avoids contentious terms such as 'gender' or 'transgender' and avoids heady intellectual language to keep it as inclusive as possible.

My current thoughts are to

  • Create an attractive, printable PDF to raise awareness to distribute during actions.
  • Use it as a basis for a widely circulated petition
  • Target businesses for twitter/letter writing campaigns, boycotts

However, I don't want to go down the road of Caroline Craido-Perez or Laura Bates and be the face of anything. Is Basil still here? How did it work staying anonymous with 'We Believe You'?

I'd love to have any thoughts, feedback, next steps or suggestions to make this an empowering resource for people who want the option for sex-segregation/ same-sex spaces.

Big thanks in advance.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 22/02/2018 17:05

Personally I don't think you need to spell out in the title of the section that gender dysphoria is a mental health condition. You can do that in the description. I don't really think it's such a commonly understood term that the average person will disagree with your appraisal of it. So it's a sympathy thing for medically diagnosed trans people. But I respect your judgement and as I said I'm really impressed, not least by the lack of capitulation to the transagenda which I've rarely seen clearly from other sources.

thebewilderness · 22/02/2018 17:04

Some of the confusion can be cleared by simply using parentheses.
When you mean sex (not gender) and when you mean gender ( not sex).

Collidascope · 22/02/2018 17:03

It's a great document, Guardian.
Just to ask, I'd always thought that the original term was body dysphoria? That feeling of your body really being wrong, which I think correlates more with the transsexual style of thinking? I assumed it turned to gender dysphoria in order to allow any old fetishist or person who doesn't quite fit the stereotypes in under the trans umbrella?

thebewilderness · 22/02/2018 17:02

It was a huge mistake for the medical community to adopt the brain sex idea of gender.
I like that you put in the reasons people say they are entitled to use the spaces designated for the opposite sex. Because I feel like it is what has actually been written into the law, bizarre as that may seem, so it needs to be addressed.

GuardianLions · 22/02/2018 16:57

Thanks... I am pleased - but it wouldn't be so good without you and jello and everyone helping to thrash it out!

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Ereshkigal · 22/02/2018 16:55

I know how you feel. To be honest your doc is one of the best I've seen.

GuardianLions · 22/02/2018 16:53

Don't worry I know you want to help. I am just very cautious about letting this one in by stealth.... there must be a way

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Ereshkigal · 22/02/2018 16:53

I’m totally not critiscing here, just trying to help. I think you have done an amazing job with this.

Me too.

Ereshkigal · 22/02/2018 16:52

I think my problem is that people with other psychological issues are being diagnosed as gender/sex dysphoric and those other issues are going untreated.

GuardianLions · 22/02/2018 16:52

An also the medical establishment conflating sex and gender is another point that needs challenging.
I wonder if there is a way of speaking about it without playing into the gender bullshit.

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Lemonjello · 22/02/2018 16:51

I think if you don’t use the language that’s being used in the world then it looks like you’re not understanding properly/ scare mongering.

I’m totally not critiscing here, just trying to help. I think you have done an amazing job with this.

Ereshkigal · 22/02/2018 16:50

But it is really IMO because there isn't enough gatekeeping of people diagnosed with GD. Women's spaces should be able to exclude all males. As the Equality Act permits.

GuardianLions · 22/02/2018 16:47

I think 'gender dysphoria' has successfully confused everything already. And this isn't about dysphoric people

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Ereshkigal · 22/02/2018 16:47

That's a fair point. Maybe still change point 2 to gender dysphoria?

GuardianLions · 22/02/2018 16:46

However I also feel that switching it to point 1 is letting MRAs and TRAs decide our priorities.
My most pressing concern is the perves and sex offenders.

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Ereshkigal · 22/02/2018 16:45

I agree that would work. I was saying that we shouldn't go down the rabbit hole. But "gender dysphoria" is the accepted DSM 5 condition.

I was agreeing that as a more sympathetic position we could change "No 1. psychological disorder" to "gender dysphoria" but describe it as the mental health condition it is.

Calling it sex dysphoria instead is fine by me but it might be confusing.

GuardianLions · 22/02/2018 16:39

I don't think it will help to go down that rabbit hole. Maybe 'sex dysphoria'?

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Ereshkigal · 22/02/2018 16:38

How about from lemon's suggestion that it's "no 1, gender dysphoria there is a rare psychological disorder... etc"

Transgender is a catch all term which includes cross dressing. We want a clearly understandable stance.

GuardianLions · 22/02/2018 16:28

I get what you are saying though.

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GuardianLions · 22/02/2018 16:25

I think that would be capitulation. The number of people with dysphoria is tiny compared to the number of people with sexual fetishes, and saying 'transgender' or 'gender dysphoria' validates both the gender/sex conflation and the concept of 'transgender'.

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Lemonjello · 22/02/2018 16:19

Yes that looks good but I would title number 2 “gender dysphoria/ transgender” and move it to number 1.
I think that will help the tone be one of sympathy and understanding but without capitulation.

GuardianLions · 22/02/2018 15:03

How about this ?

I have updated it and I think it is clearer

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Lemonjello · 22/02/2018 14:46

Yes I see what you mean. I would keep it brief and very matter of fact then.

GuardianLions · 22/02/2018 14:43

Yes I think it needs to be kept in - but perhaps shaved down - since it all would seem a bit odd to someone unfamiliar with what is happening.

There's that disbelief of - "no one even wants to go in women's toilets^ etc

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Ereshkigal · 22/02/2018 14:40

I think perhaps it could be reworded slightly.