My elderly parents peak transed today

I hadn't read the post on the "peak trans" thread when I posted that.

Still holds good.

And they pretend to sympathise with our distress and rape stories

Actually, I don't think that many of the old-skool transexuals who blow in here from time to time manage to do that.

OST: I have suffered! My life has been hell because of this!
Women of MN: That's terrible. We're sorry that happened to you.
OST: So we're the same, aren't we? Pity me!
WOMN: Well, no. Here's a story of some terrible thing that has happened to me because of being a woman.

OST: but I have SUFFERED! Didn't you hear that bit? And how it makes us the same? If we're not the same then my suffering gets WORSE
WOMN: yes, we see how that happens. It's rotten isn't it? Now, about this biology thing...
OST: And this is ANOTHER thing that has caused me suffering! Don't you think I would have loved that biology?!
WOMN: either engage, and cosset as required, or disengage and leave entirely.

That's been my experience. I do like Miranda's work, though. I think that they have really thought things through, and seem genuinely very empathetic.

Ffs @ that policemen. How many women are going to feel comfortable discussing details of certain crimes with "Abi"? i just wouldnt want to deal with him.

Women wouldn't be bothered about trans people and would probably be their biggest supporters if they didn't feel like they were being flung under a bus to give them what they want

Do you really beleive that women would have done that Banyan? No offence but I can think of many more worthy causes, the 2 women a week killed by their partners in the uk, for example. I think the idea of women cheerleading men they don't know while they dressed up as women was only ever a fantasy on their part.

This support, or lack of it, is regular used as a stick to beat us with. We are meant to be nurturing and supportive, to everybody whether they deserve it or not. They expected our support and they are angry they're not getting it. When did we last see men campaigning for anything or support women in theirs?

My husband is a lovely bloke who wouldn't hurt a fly. But a stranger doesn't know this. He's a man. He is not welcome in a woman's public toilet or changing room for the simple reason that his presence could and probably would scare women. They don't know he's nice. My husband is not unique. Most men will not harm a woman but since sadly a lot of men do they as a collective group are not allowed in women's spaces. And nice blokes understand this and are not offended by it. If you have a penis you are male and are therefore not allowed in a women's space. No-one is saying you personally are a danger. The changes to GRA will cancel this whole system out and make it utterly meaningless. You will have no way of being in a female only space ever again. It's that simple.

Basically it is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Women wouldn't be bothered about trans people and would probably be their biggest supporters if they didn't feel like they were being flung under a bus to give them what they want.

The only hate I see is against naturally born women. We are just sticking up for ourselves.

If a transvestite wants to take their fetish to work they call themselves gender fluid. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/fluid-gender-policeman/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

Kittens, self defeating absolutely.

I felt awkward posting that because I'm aware that there's the beleif that they can be our allies. That there's some common goal and that they're sort of like us. But they're not. And we continue to support them and sympathise with them while they keep their heads down and we get trampled on.

We actually thank them when they come here to tell us how hard they've had it. We tell them that oh no, we don't mean you! I don't mind you being in my bathroom. And we bloody gush and listen to their unoriginal story about how they are gay or asexual or whatever. And they pretend to sympathise with our distress and rape stories and what do they then do?

They continue to use our spaces. They continue to insist we indulge them in their delusion and call them women. They are happy to keep telling the lie and having us feel sorry for them..They are not interested in supporting us, they are too invested in keeping their original set up.

I can't even fucking read anything by miranda Yardley and don't understand the fawning.

Sorry OP, feeling a bit frustrated here, apologies for the yelling on your thread. We are hell and gone down the rabbit hole in my neck of the woods

Well done on peaking your parents! I was just peaked recently, and have in turn peaked mine too. Hadn't heard a thing about this till joining MN, what a shock. Much thanks to you all!

One of the things that Phoenix might be misunderstanding is they may think that the fact that one has to actually fill in a form will mean it will only be honest transgender persons who will go through this, BUT what Phoenix and others are missing is that because of self-id the local pervert does not even need to fill in said form. The reason is...

Women are not allowed to complain if there is a penis in a woman's space or they are labelled a bigot or transphobic (and sometimes banned themselves). Whoever is running said woman's space is also not allowed to challenge the male in female space as they will be labelled a bigot or transphobic (or have their business targeted and ruined). That means BECAUSE NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO EVEN ASK/CHALLENGE/ETC ...

ANYONE CAN ACCESS THESE SPACES AND DOES NOT REQUIRE ANYTHING (no dress, lippy, heels, or filled in form)!

The man standing naked next to your 5yo daughter in the change room waving his willy around and watching her get dressed in the old days would have been charged and taken out. Now he has every right to be there and no one has any right to challenge him. Please wake up and realize the worried people can see how this policy will be (and is being) abused by the wrong sort of people. This frustration and fear has nothing to do with real trans people and everything to do with those creeps who will abuse the fact that everyone is bowing to the regulations surrounding self-id.

riverside Homosapien is a tune!

I agree that women should have rights obviously but trans people are women and for the most part genuinely feel that way and will transition completely.

Which is fine, but a TRA is someone who may only 'identify as female' for 2 hours on a Wednesday evening at the women's only swimming session.

Added to that is the demands for access to vulnerable women and girls (all women and girls should not have to put up with TRA's but some are more vulnerable.). My carer is male, we went to donate something to the local refuge, he asked if they wanted him to walk round the block rather than come in. My carer is not an abuser, but he realised that a refuge is a safe place for women and him being there might not be appreciated.

TRA's are demanding to have access to women's refuges, at the moment the refuge has an exemption from the sex discrimination act, it the legislation goes through a man who has abused a female partner who has gone to a refuge can say he self identifies as a woman and demand access.

I agree, Terfinator. I think a lot of the "oh but true trans are so kind and harmless and we must express utmost concern for them" is basically female socialization in its most self-defeating form. We've all been programmed to put other people first, especially if they're men, and to feel guilty about putting our own interests first. This is a case where we really, really need to put our own interests first, because neither regular men or TIMs will extend us the same consideration that we've been trained to extend to them, and that puts us at a disadvantage.

I am deeply sympathetic to people with body dysmorphia.
On their behalf I am furious at the medical practitioners who have been killing them for years and years by experimenting on them. Now those same unethical medical practitioners want to expand to experimentation on children.
WTF kind of a government would allow this knowing the history of medical malpractice and abuse? We must stop this cruel "affirmation therapy" that destroys people.

Because of Mumsnet, I had an open honest conversation with my three DDs ages 17-25 this afternoon about trans people. They had no idea I can't decide who was more shocked. Me, discovering they really didn't know much at all about trans or them, realising the horrible truth. All three were quite stunned at the realisation of what may happen if their generation of young females sat back and did nothing. All 3 are going to talk with their female friends about this.

I'm struggling to explain my feelings about this. Actually, that's not true. I'm worried about sounding [mean]. And I'm wondering how other people feel about it.

I don't think we are going to get very far while we constantly express utmost sympathy for those men we call "genuine transwoman". As we know they All claim to be genuine. All discussions come back to how we can keep them in while keeping Agps out. Feeling sorry and being nice has brought us here.

These gay men have equally conned and gaslighted us. They started the story of being trapped in the wrong body and insisted on changing laws and forcing us to call them women. Is that kind and harmless? Why does the gay man think he has any right at all to be in women's spaces? Why is his sexuality our problem?

I see little difference in these men (apart from the sexual motivation). Both groups are misogynistic.Both gaslight, both manipulate and both intrude on womens boundrys. Both expect we should shut up and put up.

If we are going to tell the truth about the trans agenda i think we need to tell the full truth. There are no genuine transwomen, there are Agps and there are gay men. I don't feel either belong in women's spaces.

Until we start to be clear about this the topic is going to continuously cycle back to the genuine harmless transwoman who allegedly just wants to get on. For some reason we overlook the fact they are in our bathrooms gaslighting us just as much as the agps. And for the most part, they have little to say on this matter. They "don't know" about it. Even when they come here, on a thread titled trans, they "don't know about it".

Most people don't give a shit about gay men, unless he's a transwoman. I'm not sure why we are covering for them and pretending they are women and that we don't mind.

It is not possible to transition from one sex to the other. Therefore people with body dysmorphia focused on sex need to be treated the same way as people with body dysmorphia focused on weight, anorexia, and those with body dysmorphia focused on amputation and those addicted to plastic surgery.
These are all mental illnesses and research and treatment needs to be pursued.
The medical profession has finally stopped chemically and surgically altering intersex people and they need to bloody well stop chemically and surgically altering people with body dysmorphia.

How do we tell who is really trans?

I have said before that there needs to be much more discussion about what trans actually is before we decide who is really trans. My understanding is that in men trans is linked to either homosexuality or Agp.

Do we actually accept that gay men are women and are harmless? If so why? I really don't want to get undressed in front of any man regardless of his sexuality. I don't want to have to pretend that he is actually a woman and I don't want him in my space simply because he can't deal with his sexuality.

Considering the rest of society's struggles with a range of mental illnesses, I really am baffled why gay men have managed to generate such sympathy and support from the very women they intrude upon and gaslight.

How do we tell who is really trans?

@DuckBilledAardvark the very short answer is this:

GRA = piece of proposed law updating that would effectively mean any man could become a woman by signing a piece of paper.

This person says they are a transwoman: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2876810-Danielle-Muscatos-tweet-on-international-womens-day

Various violent male sex offenders say they are transwomen

A 6ft 2 male born person says they are a transwoman and has now been allowed to play in the women's team.

Etc

@DuckBilledAardvark the GRA (details posted by thebewilderness) is the reason threads such as this exist. Overwhelmingly the posters on these threads fully support the rights of trans people and would not otherwise take the time to debate issues relating to trans people, but the proposed changes of the GRA mean ANY man can self-identify as a women and gain the legal right to enter women only spaces as a women (refuges, prisons, rape centres etc) just by filling in a form.

If enshrined in law this presents huge loopholes which predatory men can take advantage of, and any man seeking to take advantage claiming to be transgender can also take advantage (this is already happening in sports, all women short lists etc).

Under current law a person born male can legally be recognised as a woman if they have a GRC (Gender Recognition Certificate) which is gained through a process which the proposed GRA seeks to rid. Many transwomen who hold GRCs are also very concerned about the proposed changes to the GRA as deciding to change sex if far greater than just filling in a form and it undermines their experiences of transition.

Don't you find that a bit unfair saying all x group must be y because some are.

Comprehension not a strong point, I see.

Nobody is saying that.

@wakemeupbefore

"This place is like a weird sci-fi time warp.... This and slow-news-media. As Homo Sapiens, we have 2 sexes. Everything else is wishful thinking.
I shall go now"

I'm puzzled by this post. Yes there are two sexes. Who is "wishfully thinking" there's more?

It's government who need to understand that there are two sexes. If they weren't having such an issue with biological facts, we wouldn't have to keep raising awareness here. If you think this is sci fi, read the House of Commons debate transcript.

And now I have a Pete Shelley ear worm because of you!

Sorry bewilderness - cross post

GRA - Gender Recognition Act. There are changes proposed that will impact massively upon the trans community (positively) but also upon women (negatively). For centuries (millennia?) men have been in a position of privilege and control and now they will be able to decide that they can be women too. Sorry, but I'm rubbish at attaching links but the UK government website has the relevant details about the proposed amendments. There are many sources of opinion on the internet about the likely impacts of the legislative changes, including some details in the Feminist section on MN.

GRA is the Gender Recognition Act. Here is a pdf
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/pdfs/ukpga_20040007_en.pdf