My elderly parents peak transed today

That's all well and good phoenixtherabbit but how will you tell the difference? You can't tell from outward appearance unless you're saying women = appearance and how well someone passes is the criteria for whether they can use female spaces.

Regarding those rights do you think trans women don't have? Those who have a GRC are legally women. They are not being denied any rights.

Unfortunately, those who shout loudest appear to be influencing policy. Look at the vitriol heaped on Transgender Trend's information pack for schools - if half the people who are demanding schools shred it have read it, I'll eat my hat. Any kind of departure from instant affirmation is regarded by them as bigoted, but when you think of the gender non confirming children you knew (maybe including yourself) who grew up and are now happy in their bodies, whether straight or gay, is it worth the risk that we just agree to children making drastic bodily changes instead of letting them work though their feelings?

Should we make transwomen use men's changing rooms and let them get raped instead of us? Is that ok?

I don't know if the sort of men who would rape a TW are the same as the sort who would rape a woman. I doubt it though. I suspect that the sort who would rape TW are the aggressive, bully boy ' teach them a lesson for not being man enough' sort, whereas the ones raping women are the ones who hate women. Still rooted in a misogyny, but for different reasons.

But the important point is that, if self ID gets passed and there is no requirement on any man to commit to, or even present as, a woman for any length of time, or even consistently, then those men will just be able to follow the TW into the women's changing rooms anyway.

All it means is that the men who pose a risk to TIMs and women will be allowed in women's changing rooms.

It won't make the TIMs any safer, it will just make women less safe.

Phoenix, you said up thread that you haven't researched any of this.

There is a thread on the Pink News website talking about transmen on Grindr. It developed into a general trans debate. The majority of the gay men on there are saying exactly the same thing that women are saying on here - their rights are being eradicated; their position as 'gay' men, especially less 'manly' gay men, is being threatened with the pressure to identify as trans instead...

Google 'cotton ceiling' and read about the awful impact this is having on young lesbians as they are coerced into having sex with TIMs who say they are lesbians. When these women say they "but I'm a lesbian, I don't do dick" they are told this is a lady dick, attached to a lady, and not to be so transphobic...

Google Truscum and find out the impact of this upon the genuine transsexuals that you refer to. You, like many at the start, believe that this will make life better, easier, for them. But this movement is as damaging for them as it is for anyone. that's because the current TR movement states that anyone who is gender dysphoric, or believes that gender dysphoria to be a requirement of 'Trans' is transphobic.

Yes, that's right - trans people, the ones who have actually transitioned, the ones who accept that they are not women, but find that their mental anguish is alleviated by being able to present as women, are being labelled as transphobic/Truscum.

These are not the people the current movement is seeking to support.

See, Phoenix? Your position is actually pretty much identical to that of half the people on these threads. The ones you said sounded like they were 'just spreading hatred', back on page 1.

None of us want to spread hatred.

With trans women, I mean.

I'm fine with forming a strategic alliance with women, but to work it has to be on equal terms. Which Miranda, Pigeon etc would presumably be fine with.

Someone who demands cosseting is demonstrating the fact that an alliance is not what they're after.

notangelinajolie

My 19 year old son 'peaked' a few weeks ago. He'd been quite happily calling me a Terf and storming out of the room declaring "I do not wish to engage with bigots" previously. His central argument was that self ID was such an obvious nonsense that no one would be advocating and so I'd obviously bought into some radfem propaganda.

He was so certain that it was a nonsense that he didn't even bother to research it (and I think this is probably much of the problem - there are people on this thread saying "Anything other than self ID is cruel to transsexuals." and "Of course I wouldn't advocate any man being able to walk into women's changing rooms" without realising that the latter will be a direct consequence of the former because they haven't researched it at all and are using common sense...).

He was using the "this is the same argument that your parents generation used against homosexuality in the 80s" argument and similar.

So I told him to google 'cotton ceiling' and 'Truscum'. And he listened.

He peaked.

He gets that it's not about 'old skool transsexuals' and that it's about an aggressive MRA campaign dressed up as Trans rights when the only people who will benefit from it are aggressive, violent, misogynists.

Would you do that just so you could perv in the changing rooms? Nah.

But that's the problem Phoenix.

There is absolutely no way of telling. And women should not be in the position of having to assess men, on the basis of whether or not they think they are harmful.

Neither should they be expected to get changed next to men who aren't harmful. As many people have pointed out, our father in laws, son's friends, are perfectly lovely. But we don't want to get our kit off in front of them.

A third space is the only practical solution.

What is mentally being a woman? The brain is an organ of cognition, not sex.

no, I do understand that you can just say you're a woman, and we have to accept it and no, I don't agree with that.

It's obviously being done for dubious purposes, and you're all absolutely right in saying that it should not be allowed and these people should not be allowed in places where women are vulnerable eg changing rooms.

HOWEVER, by "banning" trans women from using the changing room for example of their new gender, you're discriminating against them. Its not fait to put them at risk either is it?

I'm not saying that I have some kind of system to rule out the ones doing it for innaproproate reasons, I don't but if this was possible then it should be implemented.

womens rights should not be affected, no. But I am uncomfortable with the fact that trans women have no rights either.

and I don't like people saying "trans women don't exist they are men" - well they're not are they. Theres some who yes quite clearly are men, and will remain so and are saying they're women to get access to safe spaces and what not, but I honestly do believe that mentally some of these "men" are women and should be treated as such.

I don't personally know any trans women so I can't comment, but the ones in the public eye such as Stephanie hirst, I honestly do believe that she for all intents and purposes is a women. She gave up her brilliant career to make that move. She lost a lot of dear friends etc. Would you do that just so you could perv in the changing rooms? Nah.

I've seen quite a few transsexuals come and go on here over the last couple of years.

And there is a definite pattern.

A bit of soft soaping first to prepare their audience. Then generally a fairly detailed account of their lifelong victimhood.

When it first started to happen posters would often start in with the fawning. Guilt, socialisation - it all played its part.

But the thing that I noticed is that the mask slips very quickly.

If they don't get 100% support agreement, the negative reactions start to pile up. Male privilege seeps out and the sense of entitlement becomes obvious.

It's very revealing and, a quite useful exercise in why to exclude men in the first place.

However. Lately we have had a few transwomen who, quite genuinely, see the problem. There may be some vested interest, because they realise it's giving them a bad name.

But nonetheless, they tend to agree very much with what women are saying.

I totally understand women's reluctance to give any quarter. Not just because of the way they feel, but because a hard and fast stance has the effect of shifting the Overton Window and feels more honest, both ideal ideologically and practically.

However, it seems undeniable, to me, that having transwomen on board with women's concerns, is quite powerful.

Both in terms of the concept - how can a law designed for transwomen actually be pissing them off? And in adding weight to women's concerns.

We may not be natural allies, because transgenderism is based on sexism in upholding gender.

But in terms of the actual argument against both self ID and the danger of transactivism, I personally believe that being united with transwomen like Miranda Yardley, and some others on here, strengthens and augments women's position. I don't see how it can't.

For what it's worth, I've met Miranda, and he (he doesn't care about pronouns), as much as he possibly can be, given he isn't an actual woman, is ferocious in his defence of women.

He doesn't miss a trick to furiously oppose and take on transactivists. And unlike some others, he doesn't expect thanks. He genuinely is on a mission.

Him supporting women, whilst at exactly the same time representing transwomen, has given many people, politicians, etc, pause.

Carving out a space for men who reject masculinity is a great idea, it just can't be women's space.

I would draw a clear distinction between trans identified males who are clear that they are widening the bandwidth of maleness and those that insist we pretend we think they're women.

Some TIMs clearly think of themselves as failed men and are trying to cope with this by colonising womanhood. But there are others who feel failed by masculinity (as it's currently practiced) and are dissociating themselves from it whilst continuing to acknowledge their maleness. This seems perfectly reasonable to me, particularly as I've yet to hear a TIM in this category argue the case for invading women's spaces.

We need to push for loud, informed public debate on this issue. Once it is out there, the politicians will have to account to the wider public for their policies on this.

Different, yes, and priority one is stopping self-ID, but I think long term it's also important to make the point that no male has a right to be in women's spaces if the women in those spaces don't want them there.

Absolutely, yes.

I explained the implications of self-ID for women and girls at the weekend to my in laws, who were horrified and asked why no one is talking about this. They felt there needed to be a lot more debate as they could immediately see the risks for women and vulnerable adults/children. My FIL immediately decried TIMs in sport as “cheating”.

We need to push for loud, informed public debate on this issue. Once it is out there, the politicians will have to account to the wider public for their policies on this.

Different, yes, and priority one is stopping self-ID, but I think long term it's also important to make the point that no male has a right to be in women's spaces if the women in those spaces don't want them there.

AAK, Terfinater, Sophocles

I'm not the cosseting type either. And I do think we're doing the right thing by pointing out narcissism and narcissistic injury in some of the people who come here and bemoan their fate for one thread because their thinking is so disordered that they genuinely cannot conceive that we are full human beings who can have our own priorities that don't include or consider them.

That said, I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that post-SRS transsexuals using women's toilets are an entirely different proposition to what is being forced upon us now.

Sorry, cross post AngryAttackKittens, yes, they are.

Yy to the objections to cosseting. I'm tired of every "real" transexual man who comes in here - a female space - being given flowers and sympathetic head pat's etc etc. It's fine to listen to their story, but they are not our allies. They are keeping their heads low while women get the full brunt of the TRA attacks. I'm sick of it. If transexual men want the support of women, they need to start speaking out and standing up for women. No more hiding. Because we can't.

Anyone I've explained the Gra to has been horrified. I've been introducing it into conversation with what I'd describe as socially powerful women when possible, the ones who are in committes and groups of other women and will spread the word.

Isn't pinkboots also pretty tiny for a bloke? And hard to miss, honestly, doesn't exactly blend into the scenery. Seems to be managing fine in men's spaces, though.

Regarding the trans women aren't safe with men in toilets /changing rooms thing - aside from the obvious that any men will be able to use any female space they fancy by signing a form so the perceived risks merely move location - have you seen @hopepinkboots on twitter? They call themselves an old school 'tranny', use the men's toilets then post pictures of themselves outside not being attacked...

If transwomen directed their anger at the men who commit crimes against women, and at whatever it is about society and culture that drives them to do so, rather than at women, that would be a start.

Decent people with penises, like Ohyes's husband, get why women need spaces for just them. The people with penises demanding access to women's spaces somehow don't. For some I imagine it's because they've not thought it through, in which case their anger is misdirected. Others have sinister motives. Both sets are wrong.

WOMN: either engage, and cosset as required, or disengage and leave entirely.

I'm not inclined by personality or politics to do any cossetting. Interesting to note that in the short time I've been here I've seen a. several supposed OSTs turn up and play out the pattern Sophocles describes, and b. more than one person shift from "oh how can you refuse to cosset this poor helpless poppet you big meanie? cosset harder like a proper woman should!" to "actually maybe you have a point about the not cosseting thing". And I don't think that change is the result of anything I've said or done, it's just that when TRAs say "listen to trans people"? Um, maybe not the best suggestion, that, because most people find being milked for narcissistic supply a bit offputting once it's happened often enough for them to notice the pattern. Related to that...

Women wouldn't be bothered about trans people and would probably be their biggest supporters if they didn't feel like they were being flung under a bus to give them what they want.

Not bothered? If someone isn't bothering me, sure. But being the biggest supporter? Why should I do that? And we're back to that unreasonable expectations placed on women thing again.

The claire one?