My elderly parents peak transed today

I'm the first quoted Mumsnetter in that article! Btw Charlotte I was a toddler in 1978, so didn't have any views about feminist issues.

Views like the one expressed above are just strange to have in our current age – it is 2018, not 1978! Due to the fact that I go to a fairly progressive girls’ school and have friends from all over the gender spectrum, I thought that people had moved on from having such antiquated views. Evidently not, and this is the type of hatred and disrespect that our parents are getting used to seeing.

charlottebowyerwriter.com/mumsnet-spreading-hatred-from-one-parent-to-another/ - A Gen Z view of this...

I have no penis. But I am very aware that I am a biological male. I fully b believe that as far as crime statistics, sports and women's spaces like rape and domestic abuse centres go that I should be counted as a biological male. Not that I'd have any desire to intrude on any of those anyway, but it seems a lot of men suddenly do

Phoenix you need to read what TruScum is saying. This is the very person you think this movement speaks for and she is telling you it doesn't.

I missed my and finally from my last post...

If this goes ahead, the safest place for women will be the men's toilets and men's changing rooms because the men who wish to do women harm will be in the ladies' masquerading as 'trans'.

A seaside public toilet has recently become a mixed one. The horror that comes from many a mother with their daughters, upon seeing the men with their Willie's out at the urinal, to the far left, is real. The men looking over their shoulders, because they're worried they're in view is not pleasant either.

Really poorly designed. I don't want to see that myself, and I'm a grown up.

It's all, really, genuinely, going too far. What about our rights?

I don't agree with stopping real transwomen who genuinely WANT to be a woman being made to use male changing rooms etc. You're putting them at risk by doing that

Many feminists have, after much going round on circles trying to find som e compromise, concluded that unfortunately we have to exclude "true" transwomen, as it's the only way to stop the untrue trans exploiting our inclusion of true trans for their own gain.

It is not hate filled bigotry, wanting to protect your own daughters, sisters, mothers.... Women have every right to their own space away from men.

Women are not putting these people at risk. It's men! It's male violence they're worried about, they need to take it up with men

I completely agree.

I have been on the receiving end of violence from men. That's 'men', not 'women'.

Suffering from male violence is something that women and transsexuals have in common, but the answer isn't to put all of us more at risk of it by letting those men into all women's spaces!

I personally would be very happy with a separate 'unisex' space.

I don't agree with stopping real transwomen who genuinely WANT to be a woman being made to use male changing rooms etc. You're putting them at risk by doing that

How?

How is it putting them at risk?

What are they at risk of?

Because, as far as I know, the structures of those changing rooms (for example) is no different; showers; hairdryers; mirrors; doors... they all work in the same way whether they are in the men's changing rooms or the women's.

So what are they at risk of?

Because the only thing I can imagine you mean is that they are at risk from other men. If that is the case, why are you/we/they not campaiging for men to behave in a less violent way? Why is the impetus not on men to change their social behaviour and instead is on women to agree to have men in spaces that have been sex segregated for a reason?

I have read several times on these threads that women shouldn't worry about men entering our safe spaces for nefarious reasons because there are already criminal laws in place to deal with these people and so, if any of them harm us, we can just report them and have them prosecuted under those laws.

If that is the case, surely those same laws apply in the men's changing rooms too! If TW are at risk from men in the men's changing rooms, then they can also report them and have them prosecuted under the same laws.

phoenix

what in your opinion would be a way to change the law effectively so that women and transpeople were protected?

do you agree with transwomen being allowed to participate in women's sport?

I don't agree with stopping real transwomen who genuinely WANT to be a woman being made to use male changing rooms etc. You're putting them at risk by doing that

Women are not putting these people at risk. It's men! It's male violence they're worried about, they need to take it up with men. Men need to be forced into being more inclusive of men in lipstick. Men need to be re-educated to stop them defaulting to aggression.

The solution is not turn women's space into a free for all.

Read ian huntley wants to be a woman so he can live out sentence in female only prison-classic example here

I also don't agree with saying all transwomen are men. They're not. Some are, and all were, yes

I have no penis. But I am very aware that I am a biological male. I fully b believe that as far as crime statistics, sports and women's spaces like rape and domestic abuse centres go that I should be counted as a biological male. Not that I'd have any desire to intrude on any of those anyway, but it seems a lot of men suddenly do.

I agree that womens safe spaces should not be taken away. I agree that there should be some kind of I don't know, phycological intervention to see who seriously wants to go through with it and who is trying it on

'Peak-transing' is the realisation that this safeguard is currently being stripped away, piece by piece.

Women were previously generally ok with someone like me (grc, would be considerate of who was in there and only used unisex changing rooms etc.) using a women's bathroom quickly. It was called 'the honour system'.

That is being destroyed now, and I cannot blame women for no longer feeling comfortable, and especially won't when self- ID comes in. How can they know that I am no longer 'intact'? How can they know that I haven't just popped a dress on and intend to rape them? Hell, my brother could just walk in as he is (six footer, large build, full beard) and they would be called a bigot for saying 'Ermm...'

More importantly, when this rule comes through, they won't even have the very slight power of being able to complain and ask for any man being a nuisance (or far worse) to be removed from their safe space.

It's wrong and it isn't even remotely comparable to racism to discuss exactly why it is all so wrong.

But Phoenix what you are suggesting should happen is what is already happening!

The plan is to change it.

A lot of people agree with a third space.

But that's not what the TRAs want. They want any man who wants to access women's spaces for any reason to be allowed to do so with impunity.

enjoyed by/afforded to

I agree that womens safe spaces should not be taken away. I agree that there should be some kind of I don't know, phsocological intervention to see who seriously wants to go through with it and who is trying it on.

for fucks sake I am agreeing with half of what is being said on here, but I don't agree with stopping real transwomen who genuinely WANT to be a woman being made to use male changing rooms etc. You're putting them at risk by doing that. As someone else said, yes there should be a third space.

phoenix, what you're describing here is the status quo. Two years living as a woman and a diagnosis of dysphoria to get a GNC. it's not perfect. It's still a damn sight better than self-ID

jesus Christ - yes I have said that there should be some way of "knowing"

are you purposely not realising that I am agreeing with SOME of what is said on here?

I agree that womens safe spaces should not be taken away. I agree that there should be some kind of I don't know, phsocological intervention to see who seriously wants to go through with it and who is trying it on.

for fucks sake I am agreeing with half of what is being said on here, but I don't agree with stopping real transwomen who genuinely WANT to be a woman being made to use male changing rooms etc. You're putting them at risk by doing that. As someone else said, yes there should be a third space.

I also don't agree with saying all transwomen are men. They're not. Some are, and all were, yes.

I also don't like the term 'peak transed' reminds me too much of racism and segregation and such like. I'm not going to agree with you for the sake of it, it's ok to have differing opinions and its okay to be uncomfortable with certain things.

there are a lot of phrases that some people find totally acceptable but make others uncomfortable

I don't know. i'm not a psychologist but I imagine if anyone could work it out it would be them.

Exactly.

And that's how GRCs used to work. How they've worked up until now and have afforded transsexuals with GRCs the rights that enable them to access women's facilities and be treated courteously by women who are happy to facilitate their lives 'as women' because it 'makes no difference to us'.

The whole point of self ID is that there will be no psychologists making a judgement on the voracity of these men's claims. There will be no safeguarding to protect the vulernable. There will be no gatekeeping to ensure that men with ulterior motives are kept out.

That is the whole point of it.

The thing is, I do think it's very disingenuous for people to throw terms like "naive" and "deluded" around. It's hardly the way to win friends and influence people.

I think some of the frustration comes from the fact that so many people start where you are, saying the same things you are. Almost word for word and then slowly the penny drops.

This is not about denying rights already enjoyed to transsexuals. This is about protecting people from others who might seek to do them harm.

No one is saying 'all transsexuals are a danger to women' - although undoubtedly some are, as is the nature of people!

What we are saying is that an unintended consequence of saying that any man can say he is a woman, whether he has gender dysphoria or not, is that some men; those who seek to do women harm, will be able to take advantage of those laws in order to do so. And this is not being considered because, according to the TRAs, anyone who says they are a woman is entitled to do so, no questions asked.

I agree that women should have rights obviously but trans people are women and for the most part genuinely feel that way and will transition completely

Horse shit.

You are talking about transsexuals there, not trans'genders'. Two very differewnt groups of people.

I think that is where the disconnect is coming from.

Obviously most people women are kind and tolerant, so when they think of someone like me (mental disorder, intense therapy and some pretty radical 'self-mutilation' in order to feel comfortable in my own body) they naturally say 'oh what's the harm, sure Tru, we don't mind calling you whatever you want and helping you'.

Unfortunately that has been high-jacked by the completely different and new umbrella term of 'transgenders' which by it's own definition includes men who just like pretending to be a woman for sexual kicks and have no intention of parting from their precious penis, which they love.

That's my take on it anyway. Women don't want to be seen as someone who would intentionally cause emotional pain to someone like me (though I personally don't think my mental health is the responsibility of anyone else) and so they are bending over backwards trying to be accommodating to men that have far more nefarious motives than 'Truscum' transsexuals.

That is, until they realise the truth, and that they are being forced to participate in a delusion that the very men that are screaming 'bigot' at them don't even believe themselves.

When people realise their own kindness is being used against them as a way of stripping away women's and children's safety and rights, that is 'peak trans' and anyone helping that process along should be damn proud of themselves.

But phoenix, we're not trying to pile on, we're trying to explain that the point of self ID is that it removes what trans activists call medical gatekeeping - so the psychologist wouldn't be consulted. Their diagnosis would be irrelevant.

why are you all asking me how I would know?

I don't know. i'm not a psychologist but I imagine if anyone could work it out it would be them.

Deluded? That's nice. Care to explain why or do you just want to make a nasty comment?

this is the thing about these threads - if you don't agree you're thick

You don't make laws for the majority of law-abiding people, Phoenix: you make them for the minority of criminal people on the basis of the risk they pose. If you have yet to grasp this very basic fact about the justice system, I suggest you have more foundational work to do on your understanding of society than jumping straight into discussion of legislation to self-ID your legal gender.

I am pretty certain that transwoman have been using women's toilets for years without any problems but what is worrying me (I can't speak for everyone) is that with self-Id they don't need to make the effort to transition or even to 'pass'. It isn't transwoman who will go into the toilets and attack people, it's predatory men. Men who have no 'inner sense' of being a woman, men who are in the ladies with the sole purpose of harming women and they will use the "oh but I'm a self identifying transwoman' argument to justify their presence in an all female environment. Then there are those with AGP who get off from being in a woman's space. We have a law at the moment that keeps these people out. It isn't perfect but the proposals for self id are dangerous. And actually they are not just dangerous to women but trans women too. We need a third space. It isn't women who are going to harm trans people if they go into the toilet if their sex, it's men. So why should women make sacrifices of their space?

My whole family have peak transed. My Dsis is a fervent supporter of Labour, but issue is enough for her not to vote for them in the next general election.

This topic came up at work recently, it's quite a diverse company, so I was ready to have to walk away when the whole "but they are women" thing came up.

I was so heartened when everyone disagreed, and that women should still have their rights protected but also trans identified people must be protected too with a third space. As that harms no one and gives them their 'rights' that they mistakenly think they don't already have.

I'm convinced, given my own experiences, that it is only really a very small insignificant (in terms of numbers) minority who actually go along the with the lie to be polite because no one genuinely believes a human can change sex but the problem is they, like most bullies and people who know they are wrong, shout the loudest.

People are starting to shout back, and it's a good thing for everyone.