My elderly parents peak transed today

I think I'd reframe your question about rights, phoenix

Do gender non conforming children deserve the right to appropriate, evidence based assistance to explore their feelings and navigate their way safely to adulthood? (because the current direction of travel is only to affirm to them that they are trans, and to medicalise them)

Do camp young boys not have the right to dress up as Elsa without adults deciding that this desire makes them girls?

Do lesbians not deserve the right to lesbian only spaces where people with penises are not welcome?

Do gender non conforming young women with histories of abuse or who are autistic not have the right to be listened to and understood when they say that they want to opt out of womanhood, and helped to explore why they feel that way rather than told that they'll be happier if they cut their breasts off and have a hysterectomy?

All these groups are collateral damage if you frame all of this as a hatred of trans people.

@fishdog

More like, yay, now I don't look like I have four boobs any more! And then you realize that part of the reason a lot of women don't realize that a bra that's doing that doesn't fit is that men think it's "sexy" when you're not wearing anything else and don't care that it feels awful and looks awkward in clothes, and most bra advertising is aimed at them rather than us. Which is probably not unrelated to the topic at hand.

Wtf does peak trans even mean

Should we make transwomen use men's changing rooms and let them get raped instead of us

Can you point us to some examples of trans women getting attacked in men's changing rooms?

While you're Googling, you might want to check out this website, which has hundreds of examples of men cross-dressing and assaulting women in public toilets etc.

If transwomen don't want to be in male changing rooms, how does opening up women's changing rooms to the very men that transwomen object to sharing with help things?

Phoenix: leaving aside the possibility of sexual assaults etc, do you believe it is bigoted for a woman to not want to take her clothes off in the presence of a man?

Of course they deserve rights - For goodness sake no was is saying otherwise and would get their arse handed to them here on MN.

They just cannot come at the expense of women's rights.

Phoenix not all men are rapists but its 'men' who commit the majority of sex related crimes and will go to great lengths to do so ie become primary school teachers, run childrens homes, clergy etc therefore donning a dress to access spaces used by women and young children - well they must be rubbing their hands with glee at beibg able to self id there way into a rape crisis centre!!

phoenix no one has suggested we want transgender people to get raped although of course they will have more height and physical strength to fight back than most of us would. Hannah Mouncey comes to mind.

What rights do transwomen not have?

How should we grant them those rights?

If there is a clash between transwomen's rights and women's right (or men's rights), who should be expected to give up something to facilitate transwomen's rights?

Yes there are now plenty of extra bra fitters at M&S waiting to help us. They say they are women...

Nobody has said it in so many words but it is fairly obvious isn't it.

Your happy to exclude genuine transwomen to keep out non genuine ones. Ok I can see why but how is that fair. Do they not deserve rights?

Or do only real women deserve rights?

Should we make transwomen use men's changing rooms and let them get raped instead of us? Is that ok?

Ha ha at the bra intervention comparison!

AngryKittens Thank you for the much needed laugh! was that a stealth boast said I looking at my somewhat smaller offerings

summerisdone
Please give your daughters school a copy of the Transgendertrend guidance for schools.
Are you aware of it?

I remember when I realized that the bra alphabet goes past DD and it was like Brigadoon opened up before my eyes. Or Bragadoon, possibly.

Phoenix who exactly has said they believe all trans women are perverts?

You do realise that most so-called 'TERF's' have the utmost sympathy and support for genuine transpeople who just want to get on with their lives?

Do you think all transwomen are pretending so they can perv on you in the changing rooms or rape you in topshop

Nope -and I don't think all men want to rape or perv on me either. I just don't know how to tell the difference between the ones who do and the ones who don't in a public place when they are strangers to me. How are you planning to tell?

Can I add a little scarecrow to the list of smileys it would be nice to have? Better than typing "strawman".

These threads are like the bra intervention threads of yore. It's so lovely to see the scales fall from the eyes.

Keep reading, Phoenix. Lots of us used to be where you are, honestly, just like we used to wear 34C bras.

phoenix No one is filled with hate towards transgender people.

I've already said most of them are sweet and lovely people.

This campaign to push Self ID and medicate children although even the pro gender legal writings say 80% will change their minds and become happily Gay.

Who stands to gain? It's not the genuine transgender people who are as much at risk as women will be, perhaps more so because they will also face the anger and prejudice of many men. Think football hooligan mentality.

Who stands to gain are the people who are making money from the drugs they are prescribing to children. Vast sums of money.
Who else? Every paedophile, potential rapist and woman hater in the UK.

Who loses? You are smart enough to work it out.

It's not fair to assume all transwomen are weirdos perverts and rapists just because some are*

Straw man alert.

I don't hate transpeople.

I'm happy to stand with them and fight for their rights but they shouldn't be at the expense of already hard-fought women's rights.

Enlightening people about the current attempts to erode and replace those rights is not spreading hate.

I understand how it can seem that way because it doesn't sound very nice to a lot of people when someone states the fact that trans women are not women.

Sadly it has gotten to the point now where it's impossible for people to sit around and be nice but that's not the fault of feminists. It's the angry and extreme TRA's.

People need to be directing their horror in their direction.

It's hateful and bigoted to be unaccepting of people who are just trying to live their life how they feel they should be.

It's not fair to assume all transwomen are weirdos perverts and rapists just because some are

Why can you not accept that some transwomen genuinely do want to be women

I want never gets and all that...