The age of the sex dolls

Oldman, you're missing the point. Setting aside for the moment the concept that prostituted sex is actually rape because you can't buy consent, It doesn't matter a jot to feminists if that study is good, bad or indifferent.

It's that it asks and answers the wrong question.

It asks "Does men being able to sexually abuse prostitutes prevent them from sexually abusing non-prostituted women?". That's a terrible question. And in fact, from my cursory reading this morning, that first New York study has a number of flaws. I haven't time to read the rest right now. (their mechanism for the prevalence of sex crimes is "stop and frisk", so they are likely missing significant numbers, and they don't seem to ask the prostitutes if in fact they are being sexually assaulted, so who knows? Maybe the location of the crimes just moved, and in fact, the level remains unchanged and only the population affected differs).

What you're failing to grasp is that any analysis which takes as a given that men have irrepressible sexual and possibly violent urges that they simply must vent onto a woman or a woman-shaped sex robot is unlikely to pass muster in feminist debate. Your comment about the absolute need to wank only cements the fact that you've never challenged this view, in yourself or others.

The feminist starting point is to challenge the idea of male sexual entitlement, or at least to be aware of its existence as a thing. So there's no point in getting all flouncey if that's explained to you.

And it might also help to know that there is nothing quite like a thread about prostitution to draw a certain type of male poster here to tell women about why being able to buy sex is crucial and we need to STFU.

The problem @OldmanOfTheWeb is that you can't see that there is a fundamental issue with consent and prostitution.

If you remove all the trafficked women, the addicted women, the women in crippling poverty, the women who were sexually abused and/or prostituted as children, the coerced women, the women whose partners encourage their prostitution... you are left with how many actual happy, care-free, freely consenting women? And how on earth do you know which are which? The issue is that men that use sex workers neither make it their business to find out, nor care, if this is the case. They pay their money and rent the inside of another human. They are rapists. Because they haven't sought actual consent for sex.

So yes, sex work moves rape onto the most vulnerable women. And conveniently makes it impossible to prosecute. Clever plan. If you're happy to ignore the really awful lives most of these women are living.

Crosspost. Saw others addressed this. It's sad to see that you can't rethink oldman? Not ganging up. I've changed my mind on things on here

Oldman poster:
'I said prostitution does not prevent rape'

The argument that is does or doesn't prevent rape is nonsensical to me!!

It's like saying, 'people often raped prevents people being raped.'

(Yes there are consenting sex workers. Before anyone says. But also sex trafficked women or women with no option, ect).

Is the dutch study saying that prostitutes are never raped then? Legal brothels, for ex, in Germany have been linked to pimps and enforced prostitution. The study would have to look at rape numbers within prostitution and a distribution of recorded rape is? So it is a bit like saying, it 'prevents it against good girls.'

Not my fault if you haven't thought through the implications of the things you're saying and aren't fond of feminist analysis, mate.

Okay. If the tone of debate is "poor baby" comments, etc. I'll leave. I joined mainly to post some information on the trans threads. I'll confine myself to that in future. I'm obviously not a good fit here.

Bloke here. I assure you we can have a quick shufty without becoming incapable. And frankly, not to be too explicit, without doing that regularly it gets pretty uncomfortable.

Aw, poor baby. We definitely care about your blue balls and accept that as a reason why there should be an underclass of women whose wellbeing is sacrificed to ensure that men can get off when they feel like it.

I have absolutely zero patience with this shit and will not be pandering to some bloke's hurty feelings about how mean it is for women to point out that prostitution is not a freely made choice for most of the women involved in it.

Go away and read some books on prostitution - real books, not Belle du Jour

Whatever one thinks of the transaction itself (and personally I think that where there's any hint of financial necessity, genuine consent cannot be given, and coerced consent is not consent), prostitutes are at appallingly high risk of rape, in the form of sex acts they didn't agree to (anal, sex without condoms) and physical assault during their work. Not to mention being something like 20 times more likely to be murdered than women in the general population.

It doesn't prevent rape, it simply transfers it to the prostitutes - who are also women. You don't seem to be aware of this.

Prostitution is neither legally nor by dictionary, rape. It's reasonable that when someone refers to rape and prostitution differently, I reply on that basis. If your objection to what I wrote - which was simply to cite some relevant studies - is that you consider consensual selling of sex impossible / non-existent then just say you disagree because you think prostitution is rape. Don't start making up statements about how I think "prostitution is great because it deflects abusers away from decent girls" and similar.

It's not unreasonable that I'm upset when people start making out to have such attitudes.

Please actually try to get your head round Assassinated's post - all prostitution does is to create a class of women that are deemed to be legally rapeable - it doesn't mean less rape is happening, it just means that women have been arbitrarily divided into "nice women" and "prostitutes" and the incidence of rape among the "nice women" has gone down. However, since this is an entirely artificial and arbitrary distinction, rape itself, real rape (as opposed to legally recognised rape) has not gone away - it's just being done to prostitutes instead of non-prostitutes.

When you read a user name starting with "Old Man" does it not occur to you that the person behind it may in fact be a man? Not every comment is about you.

I'm male. My username is male. My avatar on Twitter is male. My first post on MN said "I'm a guy is that okay to post here?" And I've mentioned it a few times since.

And I've never said anything like you've set me up as saying. Someone said "it's not like prostitution actually reduces rape." I posted some studies that shows there's a high likelihood that it does. That is ALL that I did. What's with the personal attacks and putting words in my mouth?

It doesn't prevent rape, it simply transfers it to the prostitutes - who are also women. You don't seem to be aware of this.

I said prostitution does not prevent rape.

And the studies I linked suggest it does. By around 30-40% in the Dutch study.

Why would any of those characteristics make a man incapable of forming a relationship with a sentient human being? It would obviously affect their opportunity, but that's not the same as being incapable.

Self-worth and body-image issues, basically. If you don't think you're desirable or worth dating, that prevents you really believing someone loves you. I've known a number of women who thought that way and it prevented them either seeking relationships or feeling secure when in them.

What you are also saying is that it's acceptable to sexually assault prostitutes to prevent sexual assault within good decent girls.

I never said anything remotely like that. I just said that studies showed what someone said was likely incorrect.

If there were just these robots that men could abuse instead of real women?

Not enough studies are done. It's almost certain it would reduce overall sexual abuse and rape in total. It's equally certain that it wouldn't eliminate it. I'd also add in the major concern about how widespread availability would affect young men's expectations and capabilities in real sex. Some of these prototype robots can be programmed with anything from eager begging to non-consenting reluctance. (The voices, I mean. They're not currently animatronic).

Perhaps he might want to stop doing things whilst out there - who would have an appetite or the energy for sex whilst helping people survive.

Bloke here. I assure you we can have a quick shufty without becoming incapable. And frankly, not to be too explicit, without doing that regularly it gets pretty uncomfortable.

Have you seen, 'The Sex Robots are Coming' on channel four.... The men humanising the robots is insane. One guy taking it on holiday.

Also saw a programme about paedophilia in japan on bbc3. One guy had a child doll. When asked if he would want a real child he said yes but it's hard as he's not close to children. Was horrible to watch. He also pretended the dool was human dressing it.

I think that's why it's different to just masterbsting with an aid.

Also the person saying prositutes deflect rape. They're raped too ffs.

this idea that it's OK to expect there to be a sex class of women to mop up what "respectable" women can't expected to tolerate

This. It's not OK.

Pretty sure this one is actually a bloke.

In my experience of feminism chat, most posters who are actually men give their name as dirtydorothy or or something similar.
I

I'm not sure how we're supposed to find the studies about how diverting violent men towards venting their sexual anger and aggression onto prostitutes rather than "respectable" women anything other than horrific.

Yeah, it's the blithe handwaving away of any potential harm done to prostitutes as if they're somehow different from the general category "women" and not part of that category that hits my "oh no you fucking don't, mate" button.

When you read a user name starting with "Old Man" does it not occur to you that the person behind it may in fact be a man? Not every comment is about you.

What do you mean? Do you think I’m a bloke?

Anyone can disregard anyone as a sexual partner for any reason. I exclude people on incredibly shallow and personal lines. My vagina isn't subject to the Equality Act.

Not just a tshirt, I want a whole line of merchandise! Travel mugs would be perfect, you could angle them towards men pestering you on the bus.

Nuffaluff

Oh, me too about hoping that we are getting more civilised, upabit. When I was watching Westworld, I kept breaking off to wail "but I wouldn't want to do any of that!". I wanted to sit and chat to Maeve and Dolores, not abuse or kill them. I don't buy that all humans have these dark desires to hurt and control, and I'm pretty sure that we seem to manage to train the desire them out of most women (more women than men, at any rate, without going down the whole nature/nurture testosterone rabbit hole).

I like the idea of the "Norwich Model", Pat. Raised a smile even with the topic being as grim and depressing as it is...Alan Partridge would approve I think.

Tedious sealioning blokes? Who is that then?

The porn and prostitution threads always attract the tedious sealioning blokes.

Anyway, if I thought that these dolls would stop men from abusing actual women then I'd be all for them, but in reality I think it's more likely that violent men are practicing on the dolls what they will later do to actual women.