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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sisters Uncut

41 replies

OrderOnline · 18/02/2018 22:06

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5406353/Protesters-wearing-Times-T-shirts-BAFTA-red-carpet.html

What do we know about them?

Are they anything to do with the protesting last week in London and Edinburgh?

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AgonyBeetle · 19/02/2018 17:34

What TERFousBreakdown says sounds about right.

I’d also see a parallel in terms of tactics and the people involved with the hardcore animal rights groups of the 80s and 90s. They also harnessed the sympathies of liberals and young people for a cause that was, at root, valid and worthy of support, but basically turned it into a violent extremist movement with a strong undercurrent of anarcho-fight club.

TERFousBreakdown · 19/02/2018 17:10

Having given this a few minutes' more thought, by the way, this may have implications for a broader strategy to tackle the issue:

In a nutshell, you won't convince true believers and you needn't convince action seekers. The former will either follow the intellectuals after a period of trickle-down time or will become rather irrelevant on their own. The latter tend to disperse as soon as another fun issue to rage about looks more attractive. They are the types of people you read about occasionally because they used to be in the EDL but then saw the light and joined an Antifa group instead. They're basically (and I'm sorry to say this about former comrades, but it's true nonetheless) followers.

You can and should try to convince the intellectuals. They're very often people who constantly struggle with their own ideological beliefs as they are already painfully aware of a whole variety of small and not-so-small inconsistencies in their own belief systems which they tend to try hard to reconcile. Offer them a more consistent alternative that does justice to their core concerns and they can and will be swayed. Conveniently enough, they're also the group most likely to trigger a bandwagon effect.

So much for authoritarian tendencies within supposedly anti-authoritarian groups. Any more questions as to why I didn't hold out long enough to embark on the professional activist career I once envisaged? Grin

TheLovelyHorse · 19/02/2018 16:49

TERFousBreakdown, that's very interesting.

I'm trying to contact a few of my left-wing old mates who were at Greenham in the early 1980s, to see what we'd have done back then if there'd been an equivalent of TRAs / sisters uncut trying to muscle in on our women's peace camp.

TERFousBreakdown · 19/02/2018 16:40

I think they have an umbilical attachment to sections of Class War and the anarchist scatterings around London. And I say that as a lefty.

I won't be able to go into all too much detail here as this might turn out to be very outing indeed - but as a formerly active member of the so-called revolutionary left and as someone who still, to some degree, identifies as an anarchist and retains some contacts in the ... erm ... milieu, I can basically confirm that this is the case.

Sadly, and this was one of the major reasons why I eventually withdrew from hard-left activism and joined the International Brigades of Armchair Revolutionaries (IBAR), this is not particularly unusual for far left groups.

In my experience, they are made up of a mix of a) idealistic intellectuals, b) true believers and c) action seekers. Typically, you'll see some overlap between a) and b) and between b) and c) and c) will tend to start hopelessly outnumbering both a) and b) as the group grows.

My personal reason for leaving was not dissimilar to the current situation, though the context was different: I could not personally stand for nor was I okay with being part of a group that was refusing to condemn the Palestinian faction Hamas - not because I was not down with supporting the idea of Palestinian self-determination in principle but because I refused to enter unholy alliances with people opposed to virtually every other belief I personally happen to hold (and I don't mean this in the religious sense).

This is a bit of a tangent, but I thought I'd share in order to maybe give a bit more of a very superficial understanding of typical dynamics to those posters who have never been part of the revolutionary left.

TheDayTheTerfStoodStill · 19/02/2018 16:22

They are pro prostitution as well as pro self ID (the two things generally seem to come as a pair).

TheLegendOfBeans · 19/02/2018 14:19

Sorry not to RTFT but I get the impression they fancy themselves as the UK Femen or something

hackmum · 19/02/2018 14:17

Bloody hell, slug, that's terrible.

Wisterical · 19/02/2018 10:15

hackmum RCP are still around. I went to sisters uncut meetings about 18 months ago. Although some members were active in RCP most were not and all seemed to have a background of feminist activism. Though some strongly disliked my type of feminism!

Dramatriangle · 19/02/2018 10:12

No, the real world is still the real world, mostly currently blissfully aware of the impact of the proposed law changes being debated or the implications. A law change that would mean someone like Danielle Muscato or a TRA tweeting getting into Women's bathrooms and smashing their faces against the sink or any man with bad intentions can walk into vulnerable women's spaces.

LangCleg · 19/02/2018 10:02

It all hits a bit of a COINTELPRO note for me. Not sure who's behind the current transformation of the left into an alarming parody of itself, but it definitely doesn't feel organic

None of it feels organic. Social media in no way represents anything I see IRL.

Latinista · 19/02/2018 09:57

I thought they were just confused but reading these threads it sounds as if a lot of ppl think there has been something more sinister going on ... have they been taken over recently by TRA? Worried that new young generation of twenty-something feminist women buying their publicity are in for a shock.

hackmum · 19/02/2018 09:55

I agree, Saskia - it sounds ridiculous, but since I've been reading some of the stuff the Russians have been up to with fake Twitter and FB accounts, it no longer seems implausible. And I agree with Angry that it feels like COINTELPRO too. Some organisation with sinister motives is behind this, just not sure who.

AngryAttackKittens · 19/02/2018 09:46

It all hits a bit of a COINTELPRO note for me. Not sure who's behind the current transformation of the left into an alarming parody of itself, but it definitely doesn't feel organic, and governments have done this before.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 19/02/2018 09:39

That's a good point about Russia, hackmum!

If someone had told me I'd agree with that a couple of years ago I'd have laughed. But recent events do make it seem very, very plausible.

hackmum · 19/02/2018 09:29

"My local group had some members who were also very active in the revolutionary communist party."

That's interesting - when was this? Didn't the RCP disband and then reform as Spiked (right-wing, libertarian, lots of front organisations)?

I sometimes find it hard to keep track of which left organisation is a front for what these days. But I think it's fair to assume that Sisters Uncut aren't a spontaneous grass-roots expression of feminism by ordinary women. I agree with Saskia about the TRA movement being a front for MRAs, but having read about the extent to which Russia is meddling in democratic politics, I do wonder if they are behind some of this stuff too. Some of it is so outlandish and outrageous, and so clearly designed to sow dissent and discord and detract from other important issues, that it has the feel of having something bigger behind it. I find it hard to believe that MRAs on their own could have come up with something like this.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 19/02/2018 09:17

This means that they're "anti-carceral feminists". If you look it up your opinion of them is unlikely to improve. It also means that they've been influenced by MRAs, even if they don't realize it.

This ^ This whole movement is a front for MRAs, it's so glaringly obvious. Although, I'm not sure if the people who advocate for it are unaware of what they are doing. They can't be. Claiming to be against VAWAG while simultaneously supporting groups and positions which promote it is such an obvious contradiction they must realise what they are doing.

Wisterical · 19/02/2018 08:29

My local group had some members who were also very active in the revolutionary communist party. Thing is, all the sisters uncut women I met were committed, energetic and brave but saw me as a prejudiced dinosaur and after getting yet another patronising lecture about intersectional feminism I stopped being involved with them.

dogendsaredogs · 19/02/2018 08:22

Looked up anti-carceral and got to Penny White who I know from u-tube. Now i know Angrykitten. Cheers,

Xenophile · 19/02/2018 08:15

They have gone from a really good group of women who wanted to work to save DV services for women to an adjunct of ClassWar which never did a bloody thing for women.

Fuck them, and the horses they rode in on.

AngryAttackKittens · 19/02/2018 07:49

On their fb page they say the DV and Abuse Act is a 'distraction' and creates 'pro-arrest environment' "in which everyone involved in a domestic abuse incident is more likey to be arrested. As a result. the number of victims wrongly arrested by police rises."

This means that they're "anti-carceral feminists". If you look it up your opinion of them is unlikely to improve. It also means that they've been influenced by MRAs, even if they don't realize it.

We had someone on here defending the whole anti-carceral thing a while back, maybe she'll pop in again and explain why arresting men for DV is undesirable.

(If you're a delusional muppet. Just so nobody thinks I'm in any was supporting any of this nonsense.)

CircleofWillis · 19/02/2018 07:18

Some people from the group are on bbc breakfast right now. Unfortunately I have just missed it all. Did anyone see it?

Everyonematters · 19/02/2018 02:10

The act the protesters are complaining about has cross-party backing and a big tick from Women's Aid, according to the Guardian; www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/01/scotland-set-to-pass-gold-standard-domestic-abuse-law

Everyonematters · 19/02/2018 02:05

I wondered that, dogends. Very odd argument to hear from an org supporting victims of DV. The only people I would have thought were more likely to be arrested due to new laws around coercive control would be the (almost overwhelmingly male) perpetrators of domestic abuse against the (almost overwhelmingly female) victims of it. Which you would think supporters of women's refuges would support, right?

The argument Sisters Uncut are making AGAINST such measures to criminalise abusive behaviour would be more the kind of thing you would expect to hear from a perpetrator of DV or a Men's Rights Activist, who would try to smokescreen the facts that DV is overwhelmingly against women, and help to enable it. The kinds of people who would desperately love to be able to find a way to have the outside world validate their deluded but deeply held belief that they are actually the victims not the (usually) woman they are abusing.

If ONLY there was a magic costume an abuser like that could put on to make it clear to the world that truly it is he who is the victim.

Oh wait.

dogendsaredogs · 19/02/2018 01:48

On their fb page they say the DV and Abuse Act is a 'distraction' and creates 'pro-arrest environment' "in which everyone involved in a domestic abuse incident is more likey to be arrested. As a result. the number of victims wrongly arrested by police rises."
What does that mean? Its Class War ffs- are they trying to prevent the arrests of abusers?
I would be highly suspicious of anything connected to Class War-if anything like they used to be very creepy and fetishous.