If you're pro Self ID for trans people please could you explain it to me?

Clare, do you worry that men may self identify as women and attack you or make you feel uncomfortable in women's spaces?

Clare Thanks for coming back. Can I ask, do you spend much time on social media especially Twitter?

I ask because, and I don't mean this disrespectfully, you sound like you are missing some of the picture as to how the most vocal and militant Trans Rights Activists behave.

From the initial impression I get of your posts you don't sound like someone who would approve of the death and rape threats women, especially lesbian women get on a seemingly daily basis from TRAs.

You also don't sound like someone who would seek to prevent women talking about our own bodies, biological and reproductive functions as many TRAs are trying to do. (by the way when we talk about TRAs they are not always trans people many are just misogynistic men).

There are numerous transwomen who are also horrified at the way the lives and experiences of transsexual gender dysphoric people have been hijacked and weaponised into something they did not ask for.

Thanks for replying Clare.

I absolutely believe that gender dysphoria exists. There are several parents of gender dysphoric and trans kids and transwomen who post regularly on these boards, no one's in denial that dysphoria is deeply distressing, that transitioning can ease that distress and there is no problem with social transitioning. Everyone should be free to express their gender in any way that suits them, and to do so without fear of discrimination or harm.

The only issue for me is self ID, and that there are ways to meet the requests and preferences of the trans community without removing a century of women's legal rights. Social transition is one thing. Insisting that a biological male is actually a biological female the moment he says he is is another entirely. Refusing women the right to have a smear test from a same sex professional is not ok. Refusing women the right to change in privacy from biologically male people if that man states that in his mind he's a woman is not ok. Insisting that lesbian women must surrender their right to a sexual orientation and accomodate the sexual needs of male bodied people who feel they identify as lesbian, is not ok. And it goes on. And on.

I'm delighted your transition has worked for you, I am delighted to celebrate trans people and to fight for their right to third space specific provision for bathrooms, changing rooms, prison space, anywhere in fact where transwomen using male facilities is a concern to them - women get very much the anxiety, fear and indignity involved.

But requiring women to surrender their spaces, their language, their concepts, their rights - no. That is not acceptable to ask and it's not about being 'unkind', it's about protecting the rights of women and girls from badly thought out legislation that will have whopping side effects on British law and will increase the oppression and disempowerment of women.

But who is the gatekeeper for the places my dd and any other vulnerable female thinks are safe?
Of course I don't think everyone with a penis is a risk. Nor do I think trans women are all dangerous. Of bloody course bloody not.
But a small minority of people with a penis are dangerous to women. And they often do anything to get to places women and girls think are safe. Why should I expect my dd to take a risk?

Transitioning by signing a paper that you intend to transition is about as convenient as it could possibly be except for "because I said so".
We seem to be talking at cross purposes. We are talking about the effects self-ID will have on women's rights, while you assert it will have none.

People don't transition without being trans.
All the evidence refutes this claim.

I'm glad you came back, Clare.

I for one will try not to pile on or get offended. Did you have a look at Alex's transition? Where does he fit, in your opinion?

Oh, and- men's right not to be inconvenienced? Transition is not easy or convenient.

thanks for being honest enough to come here and explicitly argue that the right of a trans-identified male to be excused gate keeping procedures is more important than the right of women and children to have safeguarding procedures in place.

That was not what I said. People don't transition without being trans. Having transitioned, and intending to live in the acquired gender life long, we can get a passport and driving licence saying we are of the acquired gender. A GRC does not add a great deal to that. My cross-dressing friend spent a week cross-dressed, and was utterly sick of it at the end. Gender dysphoria exists.

Third services?

In Tate Britain last week I saw an "All-Gender toilet" but these are quite rare. All services are suffering under austerity.

No requirement to live life as a woman for self-ID

That is not my understanding, but the consultation has not been published yet.

How did I know I was a woman?

After a great deal of counselling, psychiatry and self-examination, all I can say is I am a complex organism in a complex social structure. I wanted to transition. Before transition, I thought there were two questions:
Am I transsexual?
Will I be happier if I transition?
I think the second is the more important. It is a concrete thing: what will you do? The first question is about how you conceptualise it. I am an asylum seeker rather than a colonist. Or, I am socially a woman. This is the fudge people have come to. Many women support that: I was delighted to hear two Labour MPs say specifically "Trans women are women". The trans woman on a recent AWS was not selected.

It might be easier to discuss this face to face. I don't want just to ignore further points, but I am worried about offending people here. "I am really starting to get tired of the argument that we're saying all transgender people are rapists" said someone. Well, that was not what I said. I can't persuade everyone here, but not everyone on the internet agrees with me about anything, probably, and I can live with that.

I don't know anything about Alex.

Why pro self-ID? Because trans women transition in far more unwelcoming environments than England in the Twen-teens. In India, where hijra might work as beggars or prostitutes, people still transition. We've been doing it at least since 500BC- Deuteronomy would not forbid it if no-one did it. It was the most important thing in the world for me. So I saw the psychiatrists, planned and prepared, and started expressing myself female in 2002. I have not presented male since. Estimates of prevalence go as high as 1% of the population, but considerably fewer people actually transition, and self-ID is for those of us who do.
Are we to understand that your answer to the OP's question is that you do not think other's should have to go through the process you did? I cannot make any sense out of that last sentence as it seems to contradict itself.
Thank you for answering the question and reaffirming that it is an issue of men's right not to inconvenienced trumping women's right to safe spaces.

Yep - it takes years and a whole lot of commitment and cash to become British. You definitely can't self ID!!

I am irritated that in many circles, my identity is now a subset and trans identity is the set. India Willoughby "I AM A WOMAN" is effectively saying "you are a cis woman".

Clare, can you see how that would be upsetting for those of us who are, and always have been, women?

Nope

Some of the stuff I’ve read on Twitter appears to advocate gender self identification as a sort of liberation from the confines of stereotypes -so the whole woman/man/ no gender/werekin depending on how on you feel that day. Adopting stereotypes but subverting them etc. Like Jack Monroe.

I do use "transwoman" but I do think "TIM" is more accurate because only males can be transwomen, so all transwomen are males.

Though what with the way things are going, I guess it's not long before women start "identifying" as transwomen

TIM, Transgender Identified Male, is an accurate representation of males who self-ID as women.
Trans Identified Males are a subset of males, not females, so it would be inappropriate to call them trans women. Women are adult human females.
Women are taught all our lives to lie for men, to appease men. Most of us reach an age where we say ENOUGH. We will not set ourselves on fire to keep others warm.

Tinycitrus wrote - "transwomen appear to be advocating doing away with gender stereotypes altogether."

Can you give examples of transgender-identifying males advocating doing away with gender stereotypes?

As pp said - selfID removes the gatekeeper. Not secure enough for me.

I don't understand how a MiT can call themselves a gender critical feminist woman.

To be able to call themselves 'woman', a man needs a gendered definition of 'women' and not the real definition. Without gender surely we remain with biology - a man being male and a woman being female?

Thank you for sharing your POV, Clare, and please do stick around.

I don't know why I was invited onto Mumsnet as I have never been a parent, but I quite like it. AIBU? asks someone, and people in a friendly reassuring manner reply YANBU.

'Friendly' and 'reassuring'? AIBU? WTF?

The jokes are great. And then there are a small number of threads where people share at great length on the Transgender Threat. They talk of toilets, prisons, changing rooms, predatory males.

I am really starting to get tired of the argument that we're saying all transgender people are rapists.

Some men are rapists. 98% of sexual offences are committed by men. Not all men are like that, but a significant number of them are, enough to make sex segregation necessary in places where women are vulnerable (and yes, those places include toilets, prisons, changing rooms).

The evidence suggests that trans-identified men continue to comment violent crime at the same rate, and even if it isn't at the same rate, it's certainly significantly higher than the rate at which women offend. Unbiased research to clarify the rate would be great, but the TRAs certainly aren't calling for it.

The language is unfriendly, here, unlike most of Mumsnet. "TIMs" or "TRAs" say people. Most of society will say "trans women". "Trans-identified males" is unfriendly.

And this is another problem, calling for women to be friendly, to be kind, to completely cede to the other side's demands in the language they use, while the other side of the argument can get away with threats of rape and violence. Have you seen some of the shit TRAs get up to? Do you condone the attack on Maria MacLachlan at Speaker's corner? Or the ones who armed themselves with baseball bats at a woman's march? Or the ones who cover their faces to protest peaceful meetings of A Woman's Place, forcing women to meet in secret? I'm going to the London one and I'm fucking terrified. Genuinely scared out of my mind. Still going, because I'm angry now. These are the TRAs that people are talking about when they use that phrase, not the quieter ones who just want to live their life and work towards improving trans rights.

And here's the thing: women like us are the only ones who ever get ticked off for being unfriendly. And you know why? Because we're the reasonable ones. We're the ones who want to compromise, to listen to the other side and figure out a way to solve the problem in a way that benefits everyone without trampling on another group's rights. See how far you'd get telling TRAs on Twitter that maybe they should stop threatening to rape TERFs.

Stick around: you might find we're friendlier than you first thought.

It need not mean that prisoners will be placed where they are a danger to women, on their own say-so. Predatory males might pretend to be trans now, but that is not the fault of genuine trans people, and there are easier ways to get at women. I object to prisoners and predatory males being used in argument against recognition of ordinary, law abiding and peaceful trans women who just want to live quietly.

That's EXACTLY what it will mean. And, look, I know you probably won't want to hear this, but it's not even a case of predatory males pretending to be trans. Some predatory males will BE trans. Some 50% of the trans-identified men in prison are sex offenders. They can't all be faking, and if they are that's pretty worrying in itself.

The whole point about self-ID is that it removes ALL gatekeeping. No dysphoria diagnosis needed, and no requirement to live life as a woman: literally nothing will be needed except a man's say so. And then they can access women's facilities at their leisure.

Please don't dismiss women's genuine fears like this, and don't underestimate the lengths predators will go to to access women and girls, or how willing other men are to stand back and let them. Look at the recent scandals that have emerged over the last couple of years. If self-ID goes through, we'll be looking at another one.

I understand and accept there are ways in which the current system could be improved. It's absolutely shit that you had to pay for a letter from a psychiatrist, and isn't the waiting period something like five years, which is clearly ridiculous. There's certainly grounds for claiming that the GRC process needs to be overhauled and improved, but self-ID and the total removal of gatekeeping isn't the way.

And finally, I have my suspicions that we may be arguing at cross-purposes here and that if you really looked more closely into the wider implications of self-ID and trans-ideology as it currently stands that you would be fucking horrified. And don't kid yourself that the TRAs have the best interests of transexuals at heart. If I may, could I point you in the direction of Miranda Yardley and Kristina Harrison on Twitter?

twitter.com/TerrorizerMir
twitter.com/KJ_Harrison
and
mirandayardley.com/en/

Clare -
You say English law says your a woman, and that is "weird", then go on to say you transitioned male to female through the GRC process. You have not presented as male since. I'm not clear when English law defined you as a woman, was it before or after transition (and I'm not being snide, just trying to understand).

You give historic examples of people who have dressed etc as opposite to their biological sex. People do that, always have and it makes no difference to anyone.
It is not comparable to people asking for laws and structures of organisations to change; for them to literally go from male to female simply based on how they feel. That has never happened in human history. It is dangerous. I don't mean trans people are dangerous but that the precedent is.

The swearing/ affirming thing. What happens if someone changes their mind and reverts to their biological sex. Will they go to prison, be fined, be put in the stocks?? Laws have to enforceable. It's a nonsensical proposal.

Prisons - a high percentage of men in prison who transition have been convicted of sex offences. That is not because people who are trans are sex offenders. It is because people who are abusers will use whatever means they can to groom, manipulate and harm others. There are not vast numbers of those people and there is no need for some kind of "moral panic" but it has happened and will happen again.
My particular beef with the prison issue is the absolute silence in respect of the women in those prisons. It looks very much like women's needs are being sidelined because the men have spoken. People who speak out against it are told to keep quiet, that it should not be debated. Really!! because men's needs come first??!!!

There are qualities or characteristics in one sex and not the other. They are biological. Women are different to men. We menstruate, we need sanitary protection to deal with it, some of us have babies and need to take time off work etc. I could go on but am beginning to bore myself!
Men on the whole are physically stronger than women. Men do not bleed, leak milk, get pregnant, they can have a slash against a wall without difficulty. In some parts of the world girls have to go outside their village to go to the toilet and are liable to rape. That is because of their biology. If we loose sight of that it will not be long before the gains we have made will be lost and those women who still die in childbirth etc will never catch up.

I'm not conservative. I'm a member of the labour party. I'm not gender anything. I'm a woman.

What I find difficult is that on the one hand transwomen appear to be advocating doing away with gender stereotypes altogether - hurrah!

But then seem to be insisting that showing a preference for a particular gender stereotype (I paint my nails therefore: I am a woman) means that in fact an individual is that gender (regardless of biology) thus reinforcing that stereotype?

It seems contradictory.

Clare it would be great if you could come back, as you can see quite a few of us are wanting to discuss and as I said I'd even be prepared to have myviewpoint changed, it's been unfortunate so far that people like yourself have come on specifically to post their view but seem unwilling to enter into PARD about it. As you've put yourself 'out there' on the www I'm hoping that means you are open to debate.

How did you know you were a woman? How can I know I'm not a man? How do I know my current 'fact' that I am a woman is correct?

Thanks for braving the chilly water, Clare! Generally, people here are happy to talk respectfully to others, as long as they are allowed to discuss difference.

People here are very supportive of trans rights, as long as they do not impinge on women's rights. I appreciate (as much as I can) that it was difficult for you to transition, and appreciate your bravery in making such an irreversible decision.

What do you think of Alex? I think Alex is gorgeous. I would love to be friends with them, they sound good fun. However, Alex says they are 'widening the bandwidth of how to be a woman'. They have had no surgery and no hormones. I feel they are widening the bandwidth of being Male. Should Alex be on an all women shortlist, or get a job reserved for women?

What do you think?