If you're pro Self ID for trans people please could you explain it to me?

I hate the argument that you can't define a "woman" as being able to produce eggs and bear children because some women are infertile, hence men can be women because their inability to produce eggs and bear children is the same as an infertile woman.

Let's say I identify as a pigeon. Someone tells me that a defining characteristic of a pigeon is the ability to fly and that because I can't fly I'm not a pigeon. But, there's a pigeon on the pavement who can't fly because it's wing is injured. Therefore I am a pigeon because look, over there is a pigeon who can't fly, just like me!

It's bullshit.

ClareFlourish wrote - "Well, I have a Y chromosome and a fused pelvis, but English Law, bless its weirdness, says I am a woman."

I think the fine print of the law probaby says that you are a legal woman, meaning for the purposes of law, you are to be treated as if you were a biological woman.

Yes, the law is weird. Another example is that companies can be legal persons. Some more details at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_person .

Just because the law says something, doesn't necessarily mean it is actually true. Some more details at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_fiction .

Oh, now, be fair, unicorn! those results could clearly be skewed by chancers who are only pretending to be trans in order to-- oh hang on...

Very astute article Crow

This quote particularly interesting: recent research from the UK that suggests that trans-identifying males are two and a half times more likely to be imprisoned for a sexual offence than the male prison populace as a whole.

The facts exist in plain sight. And yet we're standing around arguing with people insisting this never happens.

''India Willoughby may identify as a woman, but he does not identify with women.''
by Pris Corbett

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/02/13/india-willoughbys-not-men-response-feminist-activist-demonstrates-misogyny/

"Cis women often fantasise about being sexy"

Reminded me of more than one thread on asktransgender reddit which go a bit like this

• "am I weird or even not trans [just a cross-dresser/AGP] for getting aroused by wearing women's underwear"

• "No, no! [real] women get turned on by their own silk panties all the time! It's another sign that you really ARE a woman!"

He's a lousy writer. People keep recommending him as the one who'll make me a true believer and I'm all, wait, are you trying to undermine your own cause?

My sentiments exactly! Also he wrote a creepy piece about how straight men validated him as sexxxay more than lesbians.

It's like having a white person who fetishes plantation themed race play show up at an NAACP meeting.

This. Exactly this. How happy it makes that white person to go there is utterly irrelevant, they are being deeply offensive to the people of the group whom they wish to exploit and alter the purpose of that group for their own needs, regardless of the effect it has on those people and their group.

He's a lousy writer. People keep recommending him as the one who'll make me a true believer and I'm all, wait, are you trying to undermine your own cause?

A woman fantasizing about being sexy is not the same as a man fantasizing about being a sexy woman.

That's the Serano line, and all TRAs slavishly worship Serano. I don't really get that, personally.

This, I meant to say.

I saw Miranda Yardley say that Phil/Pippa Bunce confuses "feeling sexy" with "feeling like a woman". And that sums it up for me.

Part of it is the getting away with outrageous stuff and people not being able to call you out on it.

I'd dislike people like Clare less if they didn't insist on pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining, but again, it's part of being AGP.

You have managed to exploit a loophole, which forces other people to be complicit, and nonconsensual, in your fantasy.

Exactly this. But we're not supposed to be allowed to point it out.

Did you look at the photos? 100% obvious AGP.

AGP does not exist. There is only gender dysphoria. Says someone who themselves says that they perhaps fit both definitions but don't want to classified as one as gender dysphoria is legitimate and AGP is not.

Well perhaps, BOTH exist in some degree. Certainly this is what women are seeing. The sexualisation of women is the very thing that women are constantly trying to fit back against as that is all they are seen as. This is what is threatening to them and makes them shut down and retreat into silence.

The idea that it is one or the other is somewhat disturbing and yet again is an another example of this totally black and white thinking.

The fact that you even have someone in this situation saying that AGP is not legitimate says it all. Its ironic to say the least.

Those with gender dysphoria will have their needs and concerns eventually thrown under the bus too. Unless of course, they are also AGP. Oh...

I got a GRC, but needed to pay for a letter from one of those psychiatrists to confirm I was as I said I was. I shouldn't need a doctor to say who I am. I know who I am.

If you have gender dysphoria which is a condition of GRC, it needs diagnosing!

This is no different to any other kind of certification.

So I saw the psychiatrists, planned and prepared, and started expressing myself female in 2002. I have not presented male since.

Autogynephilia is an explicitly male fetish. An autogynephile is only presenting as male.

It's really not complicated, despite how you are trying to make it so.

You say you have autogynephilia and have a gender recognition certificate. Which not only makes a nonsense of the meaning of the word woman, it's incredibly dangerous to women.

You have managed to exploit a loophole, which forces other people to be complicit, and nonconsensual, in your fantasy.

I'm trying not to lose my temper, but frankly, Clare, I really don't know where you get off.

AGP comes across as characterised by such a profound lack of affinity with women, that it lacks less commonality than displayed by even regular non trans men.

This seems to be inevitable and baked into the fetish. If you had empathy with women, as a man, it would be hard to avoid noticing that they were having experiences that you weren't having and facing difficulties that you don't. But acknowledging that would also mean acknowledging that you're not a woman, which AGPs actively resist. Having empathy for women would mean telling us to shut up about periods, pregnancy, and breastfeeding unthinkable, but again, AGPs don't have those and that's a reminder that they're not women, so those things must not be discussed. Most women don't want the extremely sexualized treatment that AGPs crave, but if we say that then it gets right to the very essence of what AGP is all about, and thus any discussion of it become enraging. Unless the AGP has a kink for degradation too, in which case our traumatic experiences of rape and other sexual harassment and assault become something to wank to.

And this is why women instinctively fear having AGPs in our spaces, even if we don't know the term and don't yet have language to explain why they're making us so uncomfortable. It's like having a white person who fetishes plantation themed race play show up at an NAACP meeting.

"Cis women often fantasise about being sexy".

The usual projection.

I saw Miranda Yardley say that Phil/Pippa Bunce confuses "feeling sexy" with "feeling like a woman". And that sums it up for me.

Well, doesn't that just put things into perspective, particularly the complaint about how 'unfriendly' we all are and the terms we use.

Doesn't it just! We should not have the right to our own boundaries, privacy or consent. And if we point out that we intend to keep the right to our own boundaries, privacy and consent, we are rebuked by the prostate owner because this reveals our insufficient submissive socialisation.

Clare - I am not your refuge or your safe space. Get your own.

Correction "their bodies being sexy". Still beyond stupid and arrogant.

"Cis women often fantasise about being sexy". There are so many things wrong/stupid/patronising about this statement I don't know where to start.

Well this is a steaming pile of mendacious bullshit.

Autogynephilia does not exist. Female embodiment fantasies are perfectly normal fantasies, caused by the gender dysphoria of many pre-transition trans women. Crossdreaming men also fantasise in this way, and cis women often fantasise about their bodies being sexy.

A woman fantasizing about being sexy is not the same as a man fantasizing about being a sexy woman. Men can also be sexy. Women does not equal sexy.

Maybe women would be more "friendly" to you if you viewed them as people.

If you're happier transitioned Clare great. No one here has the faintest problem with people dressing and presenting any way they like.

The question is around the rights of women and girls to not have their language, identity, sexualities, political AWS, women and lesbian groups and situations of nudity, intimate care and vulnerability comandeered and ordered by biological males. And as pp said, women and girls don't exists to be props in anyone else's validity or sexuality. The fact that this is even under question shows this movement is built on how little women and girls matter in our society.