If you're pro Self ID for trans people please could you explain it to me?

I wonder if the nice, doesn't want to step on women toes, knows they are not female, transexuals, ever existed. At least in the numbers people are claiming?

How many MIT have come onto mumsnet claiming to be a nice one, but at the same time claimed to be female and are happy to use women facilities? They claim no one is intimidated by them because no women has complained about their presence. How can they claim to be 'us', when they don't understand how we are likely to behave and take advantage of it?

"Any tips of how to do this without losing my humanity!? I want to extend the same 'benefit of the doubt' that most humans give other humans rather than the benefit of the doubt most women extend to other women, if that makes sense!"

You can be sympathetic to someone's issues, but still recognise that it's nothing to do with you. I'm not a paid counselor, I'm not their mother. I'm interested in feminism, not trans rights. Why should I stop what I want to do to look after someone else, ultimately at my expense?

Isn't feminism about ridding us of gender roles - surely one of the biggest, most damaging ones is the female role of being everyone's carer and putting everyone else first.

There's a difference between kicking someone and putting your own needs first.

Any tips of how to do this without losing my humanity!?

Asking, sorry, demanding that women retain their rights is not showing a lack of humanity to anyone.

Women have fought for decades for every single scrap of legislation.

It's really not our responsibility to feel as though we need to dot all the I's and cross all the T's in terms of how to make this 'work' for everybody.

It works just fine if the exemptions to the equality act are invoked.

And by invoked, I mean shouted from the rooftops, demanded they are used at every opportunity and fight tooth and nail to change the narrative.

Transwomen are not women. Either biologically, or under the equality act.

Autogynephilia feel needs to be acknowledged and addressed.

Women's biology is something that is pertinent to women and women only. And the narrative surrounding that, both privately and publicly, needs to be not just acknowledged, but celebrated.

You're talking about a minuscule number of people, who are making changes to the entire population, not just women.

Humanity doesn't come into it, unless it's they who are ignoring it.

Analogy also works in that some people reach base camp and decide that they can't handle going any further, some turn back, and only the most ornery and determined decide to keep climbing.

I honestly think the first peak trans people feel is just base camp on a journey of peaks. And eventually, we all end up at a no pasaran, no negotiating with terrorists standpoint, as you put it AAK.

At some point I think that the tolerance demanded of women becomes instead a demand for submission.

I feel like with the whole peak thing most women start out really wanting to be nice and to find a compromise, but then eventually you figure out that compromise has to work both ways and if you're trying to compromise and the other person refuses to they just end up taking advantage of your good nature.

Yes, @AngryAttackKittens I do.

XX

@Italiangreyhound

It's funny, on the first thread I talked to you on I remember feeling like you were really distressed by my refusal to adopt a caretaking, sympathetic stance towards harv and try to find some form of compromise with him. Do you get now why I refused to do that?

Why has the trans narrative become so successful at hoodwinking people?

I am so sad that this has made me feel less compassion for trans people. I am sorry for them but I'm angry that their cause has been hijacked by cross dressing men.

I know this has been said before but I wonder if women are seen so much as a commodity, a package. Men can appropriate that package, for as much as they wish to, and have perhaps always done this. But what is so troubling now is the belief by some that men can become women, but they will always be more than women, because men are seen as real, where as we are a commodity.

I know this is stupid but I am struck by that line from Pretty Woman, where Richard Gere asks Julia Roberts her name and she says "What do you want it to be?"

I think men want to buy into that sexy/slutty/woman as property idea, because it is appealing to them, but because they don't realise we are real people, and so much more, they cannot for a moment understand us.

It is only when trans women are thinking and acting more like the women I know (caring for others/speaking out for women's rights) that I feel them to be anywhere approximating 'woman'! So conversely the more they shout for their rights, the more India Willoughby booms 'I'm a woman." the less I believe them!

Plus I admit that in the past I've given trans women the benefit of the doubt because as a woman that is what I tend to do. But I think I want to develop a 'we don't negotiate with terrorists' stance.

Any tips of how to do this without losing my humanity!? I want to extend the same 'benefit of the doubt' that most humans give other humans rather than the benefit of the doubt most women extend to other women, if that makes sense!

The reason these natal women want to tell other women what to accept I believe is not because they see trans women as women, but because the biggest crime in their book is excluding or upsetting trans identified males.

I think this is spot on.

There's no way anyone actually believes they are actual women but some women are so socialised to be nice to ken that they cannot comprehend challenging it.

And there are so many women who believe the narrative that men are just a bit useless and hapless and vulnerable and where would they be without women to look after them, bless them... and the whole idea of troubled men just send some women into empathy overdrive as they set out on a rescue mission...

That

That's definitely part of the picture. Why can't we just play along quietly and be the ball that other men are knocking about rather than insisting on being players in the debate/society ourselves? That's misandry, that is.

What really gets me is how the laws could have been written in the first place.
They chose to go with a sloppy law instead of doing their job, I suppose.

Have the been living in a cave?

Someone said on another thread that men are used to benevolently ignoring each others' sexual weirdnesses.

I thought that made a lot of sense. And might be part of the reason why so many of them now seem so affronted by women's refusal to do the same?

What really gets me is how the laws could have been written in the first place. Had these politicians never heard of cross dressers?

Have the been living in a cave?

It honestly couldn't be more straightforward. In the days of yore in which some naive people think we still live, AGPs generally weren't allowed to transition, because of the evil gatekeeping. Then they pushed to get the rules changed, and now they are allowed to transition, but are still moaning about gatekeeping because fetishism plus male entitlement = how dare the world not give me what I want when I want it, this is an outrage, etc.

This is exactly what I keep trying to say about men with AGP. They're not simply as likely to be dangerous as any random male person, they're more likely to be dangerous.

Me too!

The most common paraphilia among sex offenders is cross dressing

and trans ideology includes cross dressers as bona fide trans

ergo self-ID means many sex offenders will claim a legally unimpeachable trans identity

ergo women and children will be at far greater risk from sex offenders.

This is not a difficult logical thought process. This is an undeniable consequence of self-ID. It can't be said loudly enough.

But Lisa is so, so good at explaining the dynamics of it all in plain terms. Her whole feed today is worth reading.

RE The bits from Lisa Muggeridge that LangCleg posted, thank you! This is exactly what I keep trying to say about men with AGP. They're not simply as likely to be dangerous as any random male person, they're more likely to be dangerous. Which is why opening the doors of women's spaces to them by including them in the "trans umbrella" is a disaster, and has prompted so many women to push back. We instinctively know that these men are a danger to us, because their behavior is basically a giant collection of red flags. We are being told by the media and politicians that saying so is bigoted and offensive. This is gaslighting on a massive scale, and an attempt to appease aggressive, dangerous, mentally ill people by just letting them do whatever they want because it's easier than attempting to reason with them.

It's also ethically wrong and an abandonment of the responsibility that politicians, media, etc have towards the public.

Yy, Italian. You are completely right

Someone needs to ask these questions on a national platform. Politicians need to be held to account.

Again and again I come back to the same question.
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex, and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?
How do you intend to punish the women who refuse to submit?

9 pages. not one coherent argument in favour of gender self ID.

One cry of 'misandry'.
Several posts ask 'why cant women be nice, what would it cost you?'
One trans person who identifies as a woman but not with women.

Not one pro self ID person has criticized men, demanded men 'be nice' or expand the bandwith of masculinity.

Italiangreyhound

Excellent post. Once you see it, it can never be unseen.

@BigDeskBob "Women and girls feeling aren't seen as important even by other women. Which is ironic given that this is driven by the gender feels of men."

I think we need to remember foot binding was done by women fearful men would not marry their daughters. FGM is done by women fearful men will not marry their daughters.

Women have been and are, sadly, complicit in their sex's abuse.

It is sometimes even painted as liberation! Why should women be embarrased to be naked or undressed in front of men! As if what women feel (any sense of modesty or privacy) is wrong and oppressive!

@TerfyTheCuntingTerf the women telling other women to accept a smear test from a trans identified male would claim to believe that make was a woman. But what I find so hard to understand is if a woman was alarmed by me, even as another woman, I would not try to force them to accept 'care' from me. The reason these natal women want to tell other women what to accept I believe is not because they see trans women as women, but because the biggest crime in their book is excluding or upsetting trans identified males.