If you're pro Self ID for trans people please could you explain it to me?

Thegoldenbough, no. Those people are not trans people they are criminals. Worrying yes, but this thread is about trans people, not criminals. Those people are not their fault.

There will of course be criminal trans people but thats not because they are trans, it's because they are criminals.

I think you're doing a good thing in starting the thread Camper. It is important to try and understand other people's views.

I think the big sticking point is the definition of women though. Trans supporters don't see it as important- woman means something different to everybody, self-Id is key, the more the merrier etc.

Radfems think that it's important in some cases to segregate by sex and that therefore we should have a clear, unambiguous definition of 'male' 'female' 'man' 'woman'.

We all know that's not going to happen because there is no definition.

But clownfish! But strawberries!

Gah. Sorry, Camper. I'm in an exceedingly testy mood this morning and not up for tolerating endless gaslighting from the social constructionists. I'll wander off into actual material reality (weirdly enough, it does exist) and stop being tempted into derailing your thread!

To the pro self ID people. How do you propose that we are inclusive to transwomen without damaging women in the process?

Or

Is it acceptable to you that some women and girls will be collateral damage in the quest for people born male to do exactly as they please no questions asked?

I ask this because I've seen similar debates recently around gun control in the US, that basically the right to bear arms is such an important principle it must be upheld even if that means some children being slaughtered periodically.

Do you basically believe that collateral damage is justified by the greater aim?

ReluctantCamper, in relation to your comment about sex being important, prostate exams etc, I think that side of things is between the individual and their doctor when's medical need arises. It's really of no consequence or business to me if a (trans)man needs a smear etc.

MrsK, yes, I do feel there's more to me being a woman than my biology. I think I'd know I was a woman even if I was blind, deaf, dumb and had no sense of touch. But even if gender is purely a social construct (which may well be the case) I don't see why I need to stop people living within the social construct of their choice.

To those who are pro self id, do you have no concerns at all about middle aged men who have been imprisoned for sexual crimes against women saying they are trans and requesting transfers to women only prisons?

Or any of the other concerns with self ID that have been discussed endlessly.

My issue is not with people with gender dysphoria. Have no issue at all with them. My concern is with the unintended consequences of self id and its potential for abuse by predatory men who don't identify as female but who will say they do if it gives them access to women.

If transwomen are women, why have I not read a single report of one using their contacts, or male socialisation to benefit all women - because that I would be totally on board with!

Why am I only reading abuse towards women and concerns with trans issues such as being allowed hair straightners in prison; requests for cute clothes; women being expelled from the Labour Party by a LP Women's Officer; and complaints that they are not permitted to counsel female rape victims, fit bras or perform intimate body searches.

It can't be because the positive reports and stories are being blocked by a biased media. It's not that trans people are being 'no platformed' because they are the only group that does have a platform at the moment.

The transcommunity have free reign to tell us all the good they are doing for ALL women in order to portray their woman status. And not a single one is.

Apart from the old skool transsexuals who are just getting on with their lives, attending WI meetings, wearing ordinary clothes and doing boring mundane jobs that don't involve gaining access to women or their bodies.

And finally, how do you respond to the fact that gay men, lesbians and old skool transsexuals/those with GD/'Truscum' are expressing the exact same concerns as women.

Because it's not for me to decide who anyone else is

Justanotherzombie do you feel as though you have a gender identity as a woman? That there's more to you being a woman than just biology? I'm guessing that women who feel that way are less likely to feel worried or concerned about 'trans women are women' because they would feel comfortable with the new gender feels meaning of 'women'.

I personally don't have a gender identity/inner sense of gendered self. My own sense of being a woman comes solely from my own biology. Therefore I feel that by saying 'transwomen are women' other people are trying to decide who I am. That's also why I reject the label 'cis' - it simply is not true for me.

I am interested in why people think you can self ID your sex. Gender - no problem. But the GRA seems to allow self ID of sex, without any measure of thought as to whether aspects of society should remain segregated by sex rather than gender eg sport.

Thank you to those engaging in this thread with their views in favour of self ID, and I hope we can have a respectful debate and not pile on.

We all know that's not going to happen because there is no definition.

So do you want to hear people views or argue with their opinions?

I imagine OP was hoping for something more substantive than the usual drivel about faux inclusivity and not being mean.

An objective definition of woman under which TIMs are women, for instance?

I have a question. Anyone who is pro self ID could you please give your definition of a woman. Thanks.

To be honest, and I am against any form of GRC self id or not, i don't think you are going to get the answers you want here.

The answers you will get are:
Women and female are very different things
It's such a small group of people it doesn't matter
MIT are the most vulnerable group
It's a nice thing to do, women are nice
Sex segregation is wrong anyway.

I've spoken to lots and lots of allies and MIT, and it always comes down to one or more of these points.

You are trying to find logic in a faith based system, you'll drive yourself crazy.

Because we accept that trans people are the gender they claim to be and the decent thing to do is be inclusive.

Hi Glitched.

Can I ask, do you see any difference between gender and sex? Because self-ID is all about allowing people to legally change sex.

I have no problem with allowing people to feel how they feel, or to express that in the way they dress, but self-ID will mean biologically male people will be able to sign a form, and then enter sports competitions as women. Or will have the right to be processed as a woman if they are put in prison.

reluctant

I liked the verbosity

I think that intersex people have been reported as being unhappy with being co-opted into the transgender debates

🎂 children ignoring is fine, happy birthday.

Is it actually your birthday?

Not all 'cis' women have everything in working order though. Some are born without a vagina or a womb or ovaries or have to have womb/ovaries taken out for some reason. If you judge people on having a working set of reproductive organs, you'd exclude a lot of women born female too. Just to be devil's advocate here, I'd argue that how I'm treated by society is what makes me a woman more than having periods or anything like that.

The argument though is how you are treated is based on those biology realities, which although not common to all women (for the reasons you've outlined), are the 'norm'. So as a girl society may not feel you need to receive the same level of education as a boy because the society thinks your primary role is as a mother. Similarly a prospective employer may disregard you for certain posts as you will 'just go off and get pregnant'. Your individual fertility isn't relevant; its your membership of the sex category 'female'.

So do you want to hear people views or argue with their opinions?

"Adult human of the sex class that produces eggs and gestates young"

Not all 'cis' women have everything in working order though. Some are born without a vagina or a womb or ovaries or have to have womb/ovaries taken out for some reason. If you judge people on having a working set of reproductive organs, you'd exclude a lot of women born female too. Just to be devil's advocate here, I'd argue that how I'm treated by society is what makes me a woman more than having periods or anything like that.