If you're pro Self ID for trans people please could you explain it to me?

I also see that much of what is being proposed in the GRA is already happening- transwomen are already accepted into some women’s refuges, into women’s prisons, into women’s sport.

So is there there any work being done on the effects of this, prior to the introduction of the act? Or is this a case of individual’s rights superseding any critical examination? what about children/young people? What are they being told about biology vs gender? And who is informing those discussions?
No one with power seems to want to ask these questions because they fear being branded a bigot and their political career being ended (on an echo of the way many women feel at work when confronted with this issue)

Maybe this is all a storm in a teacup and it will be ok?

And are you just confining this to people who are trans? Or any man? And how do you tell the difference?

How do you tell the difference is the question I think I would like those who support self id to answer the most, tbh.

That and "how do I know I'm a woman?"

male Not make, apologies, autocorrect!

@Justanotherzombie it is great you feel able to share this but can I follow this logic for a minute. Imagine for a moment that you felt this deep sense of belief in yourself as female, blind deaf dumb whatever, as you say, but in reality you were male.

Should your sense of self belief override the reality that others experience? Should you and your make body and your female belief be able to go and shower next to women? Even if you caused them distress?

Does what is in your head override reality?

Look at how blasphemy laws in Pakistan have blighted the lives of so many. Whatever we believe in our heads cannot be used to beat others over the head.

@MrsKCastle it is good that you are debating and I commend you for that. However it's not just radical feminists who feel that woman is a biological reality.

@Justanotherzombie Thank you for debating this. Of course not all trans people are criminals and vice versa, but what when one person is both. Where does this make and his penis go to shower? Alongside vulnerable encaserated women apparently. How can this ever be excused?

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/outrage-transgender-prisoner-living-woman-12022675

I would like to know the definition of woman. One that incorporates trans people in a way which ensures that medical necessary screening is able to be conducted correctly- no smear test appointments taken up with people wanting validation and no missing of potentially fatal ectopic pregnancies to to false information. And no prostate cancer missed.

I would like the question answered how do you plan on stopping women in contact sport getting badly injured playing against "women" twice their size.

I would so like a definitiom of woman that stops 53 year old men being able to play high school basket ball and what part of a lipstick I need to wear because if I asked to join a highschool boys football team complete with my naked male breasts and vagina in the changing room id probabky be considered some kind of predetor

Yes, Tinycitrus, that's pretty much how I feel about it too.

Perhaps we could look at other countries that have self Id laws implemented and learn from them in terms of what has worked and what hasn't.

The problem is, we wouldn't know.

Once they have self id'd they are known by their new name and their new gender/sex.

There are no records and, in the countries where it has been rolled out, it is illegal to 'misgender' or 'deadname' people so no reference to them being trans can be made. There is literally no way of knowing.

And, as Ova said, is covered by some of the safeguarding that some people have been asking for. But so far, all efforts to open a dialogue on this whole matter have been shut down with cries of "bigot" "transphobe" "terf" threats of physical violence, women being excluded from political parties and sacked from their jobs.

Like that idiot on that pic upthread - apparently a woman despite the turkey giblets clearly on show. But yes, he's a woman :s

Ok @glitched, when the UK government moves from not only proposing self ID gender to self ID Britishness I’ll accept it’s a remotely valid analogy.

In fact, the government is incredibly strict about who it will grant British citizenship to, as you well know.

You will also well know that we do not currently have (quite rightly) any ‘Britishness’ segregated protections akin to sex segregated protections.

I mean, there’s sport. Maybe some Brazilian footballers could self ID as British and we could win something. There’s maybe security services - hell, why not let foreign spies self ID as British and infiltrate?

No requirement to 'live as a woman'; no requirement to present as a woman whilst they are identifying as one; no requirement to undergo any physical or hormonal change. They will be unchanged physically. The biological sex aspects of them that led to us securing sex segregated spaces in the first place, will be unchanged.

I say this because I've often read the argument "Do you really think men will go to all this effort/have a sex change/humiliate themselves by dressing as a woman just to gain access to female safe spaces"

I think people in support of self ID need to be really clear that this is not what will be expected of them.

They can turn up looking for all the world like a regular bloke. There's no need for them to make any commitment at all to being a woman.

And they will be no less trans in the eyes of the law than anyone you might ordinarily think of as being trans.

Datun, I'm just trying to think of reasons why some people don't seem to have an issue with self Id. Maybe if it came to that, in your examples the letters could be send to anyone identifying as woman or maybe registration forms would separate gender from sex. Sports might end up with other categories based on physical differences rather than sex. Etc. That's why it would be handy to know what other countries are doing about these issues.

Yes Tinycitrus that’s the distinction that I’d make. I really don’t think it’s particularly considered by many of the ‘transwomen are women’ people tbh.

• term, social empathy

Glitched

Inclusive means accepting that trans people (not just trans women) are the gender they are and not treating them differently or being prejudice towards them.

Okay, great. So does that mean socially? Somebody used the social empathy, which I quite like.

Or does it mean in terms of legislation?

And are you just confining this to people who are trans? Or any man? And how do you tell the difference?

( I'm using males as examples, rather than females, because trans-men dont really disadvantage women)

Isn’t there basically two issues here?

1. Arthur wants to be Martha. As an individual i would expect him to be treated with respect, referred to as ‘her’ and ‘she’ and allowed to go about their daily business treated with courtesy and respect. You should respect people because they are people and life is hard - that is how I was brought up anyway.

2. Legal/ policy changes - this would afford much better examination of the implications of GRA for our society as a whole without being fettered by fears of being called a bigot. Questions should be asked: What does it mean for women’s sport? Prisons? Schools? How do we manage this?

At the moment there structural changes to our society that are happening without any proper examination of the implications and that is frustrating.

And the sub text is that any concerns women have as a group are swept aside because (cis) women are the supporters and the breeders and should know their place is to accommodate everyone else.

Perhaps we could look at other countries that have self Id laws implemented and learn from them in terms of what has worked and what hasn't.

I think that would be a start and ties in with the risk assessments and safeguarding many of us have been repeatedly asking for. But...this would require some honesty in media reporting and statistical analysis in the first place. Therein lies some of the issue - in countries that already have self ID how do we get an accurate picture of what is going on?

Can someone who supports self id please tell me how I know I am a woman?

TIA

But what I meant was that’s what should change. I’m definitely not NAMALT and I think prosecutions should extend to people that new or suspected and did nothing.

My concerns with self id is that that the significant and sizeable minority of men who do do this, will simply identify as women in order to make it easier for them to do so.

And, according to the self ID rules, they will be allowed to do this.

No requirement to 'live as a woman'; no requirement to present as a woman whilst they are identifying as one; no requirement to undergo any physical or hormonal change. They will be unchanged physically. The biological sex aspects of them that led to us securing sex segregated spaces in the first place, will be unchanged.

And, as a couple of people have already explained, in the eyes of the law and the vocal transcommunity, they are not only just as valid trans as people who change sex, but more so as the people with gender dysphoria (who are the people most people think of when they hear 'trans') aren't recognised by this new vocal transcommunity.

Glitched. Why are you conflating sex with gender?

Also, some may think that an individualistic approach is better than a sex based approach.

YTho

Can you explain what you mean by that? For instance, How would a Health Authority work out who they send smear test letters to?

Oh, when Wimbledon comes around, how do they work out who plays whom?

Or when a company is calculating how much money they need to provide for maternity provision, how would they do that?

@Mctufty if you say so. Still true though.

Inclusive means accepting that trans people (not just trans women) are the gender they are and not treating them differently or being prejudice towards them.

mctufy at first glance Rebecca Reilly Cooper seems to be saying more clearly what I was trying to say. But I only heard the name today so will need more examination.
Sex isn’t a spectrum. I would agree with that.

Perhaps there are people like me who don't think it's the most important thing on their agenda. Also, some may think that an individualistic approach is better than a sex based approach. Perhaps we could look at other countries that have self Id laws implemented and learn from them in terms of what has worked and what hasn't.