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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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This woman is all of us.

412 replies

CAAKE · 17/02/2018 02:58

Lily Madigan speaking to a rapt audience at an Enfield North CLP meeting.

Photo is from this tweet -
twitter.com/enfieldnorthclp/status/964240546977013760

This woman is all of us.
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14
Ouchbirthhurted · 20/02/2018 18:04

Yey for Datun. Agree with every word.

Juzza12 · 20/02/2018 18:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 20/02/2018 17:58

Yeah ok. I'll slouch out of my room, rolling my eyes and sheepishly apologise to both mumsnet and dad.

lol. I LOVE that women get angry, infuriated, outraged.

It's entirely necessary. And it promotes solidarity and unifies people.

I'm more than happy to say, for instance, she is behaving like such a cunt, if it means I can accurately describe the behaviour of a man (no one specific in this example, obvs), who is being a cunt.

We don't need to be bound by pronouns.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 20/02/2018 17:52

Damn it,DatunandRedToothBrush, stop being the voices of reason. You're both right... I was pissed off earlier, but you both make excellent points. I've calmed down a bit now. And yes, we are damn lucky to have Mumsnet.

Yeah ok. I'll slouch out of my room, rolling my eyes and sheepishly apologise to both mumsnet and dad.

Datun · 20/02/2018 17:52

Thank you Melamin for your support.

I'm acutely aware that for every poster, posting, there are hundreds of lurkers, lurking.

Journalists, politicians, endocrinologists, scientists, judges, solicitors, authors.

Trans-activists have made the misogynistic mistake of thinking that Mumsnet is all about a bunch of ineffectual mummies.

Melamin · 20/02/2018 17:39

Totally agree. I tend to lurk more than contribute, but there are really good posts on this board that need to be read.

It is public facing and it is needed.

Datun · 20/02/2018 17:36

TerfyTheCuntingTerf

I fucking love that I can call out disgusting behaviour and say it's a shite load of cunting bollocks.

And I CAN say that forcing women to call men she, is fucking disgusting and I hate it.

And on a personal level, I absolutely stand by that.

But we are using this website and cannot afford to get them in trouble because it will stop us spreading the word.

And boy are we spreading it!

Trans-activists are shitting themselves about mumsnet.

Bring it on.

We are watertight.

DarthArts · 20/02/2018 17:33

No one here wants to see debate shut down - after all that's what the TRA's seem to want.

Looks like some self moderation is in order.

Thanks @RedToothBrush & @Datun

TerfyTheCuntingTerf · 20/02/2018 17:19

Damn it, Datun and RedToothBrush, stop being the voices of reason. You're both right... I was pissed off earlier, but you both make excellent points. I've calmed down a bit now. And yes, we are damn lucky to have Mumsnet.

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2018 17:14

(Flip of that, think about the headlines if sex offenders take MN to court for misgendering. If they want to do that, they are welcome to).

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2018 17:11

What Datun says.

Datun · 20/02/2018 17:06

For instance, it's entirely within mumsnet guidelines for me to comment on that screenshot of Madigan saying you're not a woman unless you agree that you are at the bottom of the gender hierarchy, and therefore cis.

I can absolutely say I think that's one of the most cuntish things I think I've ever heard.

I'm not misgendering, I'm not personally attacking the person, I'm attacking what they are saying.

All allowed.

I don't think Madigan realises, for one minute, exactly how unmoderated mumsnet is.

Because we are all grown-ups. And don't require constant supervision and tone policing.

Something that Madigan does not appear used to.

Datun · 20/02/2018 16:57

Its got nothing to do with respecting pronouns, or the person demanding them. And everything to do with keeping the debate going.

No one on here respects Madigan.

This site is relentlessly targeted. And they are stepping up the attack.

They have to. We are making such headway.

Don't give ammo to TRAs.

The equality act is clear you have to use the correct pronouns. It's not clear whether that can be waived outside the presence of the person.

We don't want to headline saying mumsnet has been taken to court for breach of the equality act.

It's entirely unnecessary.

Just call Madigan, Madigan.

Let it sound clunky, because it will be making the point.

I have zero doubt that MNHQ want to facilitate this discussion. They have made it fairly obvious.

Let's help them.

Mouthandtrousersall · 20/02/2018 16:45

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

FIXED THE LINK

Mouthandtrousersall · 20/02/2018 16:44

[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle}}

He was obviously performing well in his prior role as trans-activist, so got promoted, expect to see him stuck there for some time....

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2018 16:43

Make the case for why you think it is necessary to 'misgender'. Make your use of it explicit.

Think about how it will present to a third neutral party if the person is defended. Someone saying things you dislike or protesting in a way you dislike or generally being an ass is different to being convicted of a crime.

What politician wants to stand up for the rights of a sex offender as a way to try to attract votes?

The rights of prisoners are an important thing, but its not something you want as one of your flagship policies to win people to your cause is it?

Its about audiences, presentation and perceptions.

This is a propaganda war on a lot of levels. Think about it.

Mouthandtrousersall · 20/02/2018 16:41

The legal case is the focus now, this horrible little man has been talked about enough. He's not worth the time of day. It's the principle we are fighting, this moron is just where bad recruitment/policy decisions get you. It's the Peter principle, promoted to a level of incompetence.

DarthArts · 20/02/2018 16:33

The problem with that Red is where is the line drawn?

It seems implicit in your last post that the use of a preferred pronoun is the gift of the giver to bestow as opposed to the recipient to demand.

If it's ok to call a Trans Woman a man if they've been convicted of assault (sexual or physical) against women, what about openly misogynistic persons? Or for that matter those who verbally assault women's rights?

What about people who openly admit to participation of exposing and driving out women of an organisation who don't agree with their philosophy for example?

This is my problem with the whole preferred pronoun issue. IF you accept it's the right of someone to demand then you don't get to choose when it's used ever.

If it's the right to bestow, then what's an acceptable reason to withhold that?

If the answer is never, then we are straight back to it's up to the recipient to demand regardless.

Juzza12 · 20/02/2018 16:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2018 16:11

FWIW, sex offenders like the one who broke in to the house of and wanked in a 15 year old girl's in their bedroom and are now demanding that they are women and should be allowed to go to a woman's prison can get to fuck.

They are men.

If transactivists want to stand by and defend them and attack me for 'misgendering' they can be my guest. They show their priorities and they show that they do not see the glaringly obvious problem.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 20/02/2018 16:06

so its more difficult for the likes of Lily to come after them for hosting 'hate speech'.

But this is a good point too. I reckon the site has now been properly attacked by transactivists. The sealioning did not work enough so they have turned to mass reporting. Must be very annoying for the mods. I moderate another forum and we get groups of members reporting literally every post that says something bad about someone they like..its a quite small forum but we sometimes get hundreds of reports a day. I expect modding this site has became very hard, since it was linked in the mainstream press and directly associated with allowing free speech rather than towing the TRA line.

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2018 16:06

I see your point entirely but I can't help feeling like we are being expected to participate in a high stakes game as the only entrant being expected to play by the rules....

The narrative is that we are hysterical bigots with no argument.

We can not play to that narrative.

Be this woman. The image is powerful in its own right.

This woman is all of us.
TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 20/02/2018 15:58

I think about what is necessary and what takes it too far. Is calling Lily, really Liam necessary? (Unless its about pointing out the absurdity of the 'deadnamed' PayPal account.)

I don't think calling Lily Liam is necessary at all and tbh I do eyeroll a bit when people do it. Was the same with George Osbourne when people insisted on calling him Gideon.

Is questioning Heather Peto about the legitimacy of their position on the Jo Cox programme because they were previously Warren Peto and the programme is to give people who otherwise might not have a chance an opportunity and the confidence and skills to stand for election.

I think this is fair though. If heather has previously stood as an MP, regardless of what their name was then, then the Jo Cox program is not for them as its meant to be for 'new starters'

The misgendering (accurate sexing) thing really pisses me off though, but I understand MN are in a bad position. I would not misgender someone to their face, nor when actually talking to them online either, BUT,m when talking about public figures, and especially public misogynists, I don;t see the need to lie to protect their feelings.

DarthArts · 20/02/2018 15:57

Articulate post Red as ever.

I see your point entirely but I can't help feeling like we are being expected to participate in a high stakes game as the only entrant being expected to play by the rules....

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2018 15:36

I feel for MN as I think they are between a rock and a hard place. And do an extent I think they are trying to protect our ability to debate.

I have reported a few posts about Lily, as much as it pains me to do it, simply because they were about appearance or really personal and unnecessary. They were just nasty.

I don't think it helps to get wound up by it, and I do believe to an extent that its a deliberate ploy to try and do exactly that, in order to be able to play the victim card. People are getting sucked into the trap.

We do need to count to ten regardless of how much lack of respect we are shown in return.

I try not to attack Lily. Instead I try and focus on the argument not the person as much as possible and take a deep breathe and step back.

Everytime you bite on a personal level, you actually validate Lily's sense of purpose and victimhood. You are giving attention. Think about it. Lily WANTS you to get upset, and to react badly.

Think about how your comments can be taken out of context when you make them. If they don't have an actual point to them beyond being upset/venting anger, do you need to post it?

Think about the purpose of what you are posting.

As for gender and 'misgendering'. I try not to refer to gender at all as I'm not at all comfortable with going along with the lie. I think doing so normalises it, and I do not wish to be part of it, as I see there are political problems in doing so. It inadvertently is a surrender. But I do see why this puts MN in an awkward position from a legal position.

All that said I do think its a matter of perspective and context and MN does need to think about that rather than blanket ban 'misgendering'. Its about power and how it is imposed on others and how this is being used against women at times in an abusive way. You only have to read the TransWidows thread to get a sense of that. We have been forced into a corner and have to act with care so we preserve what little free speech we have left.

But I do say this; If we completely lose the ability to call out male violence against women as what it is then we lose our ability to identify abuse and sexism as what it is. At the heart of this is the idea that if you are transwomen you can't be sexist. Which is nonsense, you can very obviously be sexist (and by the same token, you can also be a sexist woman). And yes being trans does not mean you are automatically an ally of LGB either. I do believe that at times, 'misgendering' is perhaps actively warranted, but it needs to be done sparingly and in context.

I think about what is necessary and what takes it too far. Is calling Lily, really Liam necessary? (Unless its about pointing out the absurdity of the 'deadnamed' PayPal account.) Is questioning Heather Peto about the legitimacy of their position on the Jo Cox programme because they were previously Warren Peto and the programme is to give people who otherwise might not have a chance an opportunity and the confidence and skills to stand for election.

If we really are against gender stereotyping and gender as a social construct and how we react differently to the assumed sex of a name then think about who Marion Mitchell Morrison was, why he changed his name and what his occupation was.

As I say, what is the point you are trying to make, apart from being personal?

I think its shit we are having to do this, but part of it, is because MN can only regulate what's on site and not what's off site. I do think they are trying to protect the debate for us all, so it's more difficult for the likes of Lily to come after them for hosting 'hate speech'.

If you do want to go further, you can do so elsewhere and through other avenues.

If you don't think I'm angry, you do not know the half of it. I just think we need to use our rage wisely. Don't squander the power we do have by acting rashly.

No easy solution here.

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