Trans people are not harming anyone

Intersectional feminists cannot support trans people in female spaces, since that excludes Muslim and other women from female spaces.

Trans ideology is:

Reifying harmful gender stereotypes
Sexually coercive and abusive towards lesbians
Homophobic and sexist (see 1 and 2)
Pushing for unnecessary medical intervention in children
Unworried about increased risk to the safety of women and girls
Prepared to overlook male pattern sexual offending
Authoritarian and bullying

I could go on.

Have any of our new guests given a good non-circular definition of what a woman is yet? One that includes me and Danielle muscato?

Maybe there are just a good many more feminists out there who are not of "one mind" than the MN Feminism boards would previously have suggested. I for one am glad that other people reading these threads will see that the other side exists, and is not only made up of TRAs, men or trolls.

Trying to shout down the little women with their superior intellect - typical male behaviour

Trans activists are still harming the female sex and eroding our rights irrespective of brain scans

At least open debate rather than TA bullying can happen here. Pretty tragic really.

They could maybe try to be a bit more smart about it, though. They always come across so utterly stupid.

OK this morning there is very definitely a lot of posters coming on here to "redress the balance" of views. Which is kind of them, and I suppose gives us all a chance to reiterate what each of us as an individual thinks.

Trans ideology is underpinned by biological essentialism.* This is incredibly harmful to women. If we accept that lady brain exists, that femininity is an innate essence that most women have. What's the point in trying to increase female participation and inclusion in politics/STEM/the board room. Women are just 'naturally' disinclined to do those things so why go against nature?

*From Oxford REference

The belief that 'human nature', an individual's personality, or some specific quality (such as intelligence, creativity, homosexuality, masculinity, femininity, or a male propensity to aggression) is an innate and natural 'essence' (rather than a product of circumstances, upbringing, and culture).

"If brain scans proved trans was a scientifically quantifiable phenomenon, they'd be used for diagnosis."
If these brain scans proved reliable for those with gender dysphoria, TRAs would (and already do) oppose it since dysphoria is not required to be trans nowadays, just a self-declaration!

As regards the Nature article, a quick skim is interesting. Particularly where they say:
"In the other tracts measured, the present study revealed, like in several previous studies, sex-atypical FA values in transgender individuals. However, and importantly, these values became sex-typical after accounting for sexual orientation."
Which was what others were saying -- some previously reported effects were actually sexual orientation rather than gender identity related. Or saying lots of researchers didn't have proper control groups..............
Certainly doesn't say TrW have ladybrains (I admit I found their terminology of TrW, HeM, HoM etc etc rather confusing!).
I was wondering whether or not they controlled for cross-sex hormone therapy? (Ah, I see they say "Exclusion criteria consisted of previous or current hormonal treatment", but you have to be aware of the availability of hormones on the black-market, so not officially prescribed hormones does not mean they have never had hormones and might just lie.)

Also interesting that the differences they did find, they focus on:
"Importantly, the present data also provide a neuroanatomical underpinning for a GD/transgender-specific aspect - the body dysphoria and great distress due to incongruence between physical sex and experienced gender."
So, they seem to think the difference they found isn't ladybrain, but instead a propensity to feel some disconnect with your body (hence dysphoria). Which, according to TRAs, isn't required to be trans.

I would not be at all surprised if there were some correlate in the brain, that explains a propensity to develop the disconnect and distress that is gender dysphoria. For those who suffer from it, we owe them the best research as to how their distress can be alleviated or treated. But this is not where current TRAs are, which is dysphoria not necessary, and hormones/surgery on demand is the thing. Totally different hymnsheet -- one group supports the ladybrain, the other doesn't.

I'd be interested to see if the differences they see are possibly related to any differences as regards those with other bodily dysmorphias? And frankly, the groups they are talking about here are the classic dysmorphic transsexuals who most people think self-id is talking about, not the actual non-dysmorphic, I don't want surgery I just have a ladybrain lot who the TRAs are actually advocating for.

P.S. I see they also excluded anyone with a diagnosis on the autism spectrum, so they seem to have done a reasonable job.

If brain scans proved trans was a scientifically quantifiable phenomenon, they'd be used for diagnosis.

They're not.
Make of that what you will...

Love the sealion cartoon.

Welcome to MN all you lovely new sealions people.

Carrier any studies where the sample aren't already taking opposite sex hormones at all? Because that's pretty much what those studies are measuring, the effects of huge doses of oestrogen on the brain chemistry of male subjects.

Brain plasticity is a well known phenomenon. It even works with enormous hormone changes.

lucy the only person who think like that is you. Good luck with that kind of stupid.

(Photo is for those who mentioned sealioning, it fits nicely and could be reused on similar threads)

lucylouuu: peak TERF right there.

It has harmed me, to be told that my childhood was a lie and that my experience if being female is invalid and second to that of a man.

but they are doing harm because all trans people are men in changing rooms staring at girls and all my rights as a woman are disappearing because there's some men who want to be women!!!!!

The brain scans sadly do not prove that trans is a thing. Are you arguing that conclusive proof of the ladybrain has been found?

In terms of methodology, brain scans are unreliable, see Craig Bennetts findings of neurological activity in a dead salmon. Wired has produced a succinct article on it: www.wired.com/2009/09/fmrisalmon/

With regards to Prof. Hines work, funding structures in universities dictate what questions may be asked and thus what may be found. The pressures of the REF mean that the university supports research which will make headlines - quantifiable impact - and scientific research which claims to find natural reasons for sexism and supporting the status quo makes headlines.

As I have mentioned Hines of the opposing view are Dr. Fine, Delusions of Gender and Fine, Testosterone Rex. Also A. Saini, Inferior is one of the best books I read last year. It debunks a lot of sexist science and explains how it got produced and accepted.

That is all very well - but why are my rights being eroded?

Trans rights are important. I want everyone to feel safe and supported.

This transwoman is eloquent on why she feels self-Id is not a good idea: mobile.twitter.com/kj_harrison?lang=en

All the arguments that you put forward from others in your OP are black-and-white, which is a very immature way of approaching most things. I wouldn't waste my time arguing back in that case.

I think there's some evidence of certain brain receptors not being able to pick up the correct hormone. So the male brain doesn't pick up testosterone therefore the person doesn't feel masculine.
How this translates as them suddenly being a full biological woman though. Goodness only knows. But fair play, an adult can live their life as they choose. As long as it causes no harm to others.

Then there's those who truly get their kicks from dressing upwomen's knickers. Lol. Bless em. I married one so I do know that's true. They exist. They aren't trans but could easily pretend to be. If they are that way inclined.

I believe that there is a need to be assessed in terms of gender id. That's all. If the doctors say you're trans then that's fine by me.

If you want an example of how terrifying the implications of self Id are, check out Marie Dean. A person that filmed himself breaking into children's rooms and wanking onto their pants. That person wants to be in a female prison. Erm. Nope.

Is the “they’re not doing any harm”kind of a trans version of NAMALT? That yes, individual trans people aren’t trying to erode the rights of women by redefining the word but the trans activists, part of their class, are. The equivalent of DH is lovely and kind to me but the class of men aren’t. Trans activists do cause harm - reducing the safety of women, reducing woman to a feeling not a biological fact, abuse (both physical and verbal) towards women who want to maintain their own safety. In the same way we don’t know which man will attack us we can’t know whether we have a trans person going about their lives or a TRA.

As for everything to lose and nothing to gain then ask why we’re seeing sports men who didn’t make it to the top in men’s sports suddenly transitioning and winning funding, medals, spots on women’s teams. Sounds like a gain to me. Along with the sort of fame and notoriety that female sportspeople never achieve.