Spectator article: Don't fall for it people

Right now the right are pissing themselves laughing at the left tearing itself apart yet again

And the right tore itself apart with UKIP and the tories. That's how politics works. That's how it is supposed to work. Can't apologize for it and we can't back down.

for Askbasil. Exactly.

I don't want a tory government. But Corbyn has been on MN, he has spoken to us, he has shut us down and answered questions about biscuits (poorly). He knows and he doesn't care. And if he has heard the screaming of women and decided what they are screaming about isn't worth investigating for 20 minutes he can fuck the fuck off.

He's either lazy, sexist or stupid and he doesn't strike me as lazy or stupid.

How does self ID benefit the poor and sick?

Right now the right are pissing themselves laughing at the left tearing itself apart yet again

And the poor and sick suffer.

I agree piglet, but the difference between her comments on Go Fund Me and here/Twitter is striking.

We do need to remember that the poster calling herself Jennifer James may be an imposter

Could be but her reaction to Kirkups tweet on her Twitter would suggest not.

I vote Thomas Jefferson!

I actually stand with JJ. I think the best tactic is to fight from within

That's your choice. I personally can't.

although I think that JC is being a right royal idiot over this one

He is being an idiot over many things not just this.

(Cross-post from the other thread)

We do need to remember that the poster calling herself Jennifer James may be an imposter. Whoever is posting as her clearly knows her views well, but may be shit-stirring by exaggerating them. For example, JJ posted an update to the Go Fund Me appeal, praising the Spectator article (and just commenting in passing that she disagrees with his views on Corbyn), whereas she appears to be condemning the article totally here. The tone is inconsistent. A clever TRA or general trouble-maker might be trying to discredit the crowd-funder.

All parties are tearing themselves apart and no one is winning anything from it.

Amortentia: I think the only hope for Scottish women who are pro independence is the Women for Independence Party, they are doing great stuff for actual women and have avoided trans infiltration so far

Really? Their website says "Membership is open to all self-identifying women." So that's me excluded then!

Yes that made me smile. I know one of the leading lights in Women for Independence- she toes the party line rigidly.

I actually stand with JJ. I think the best tactic is to fight from within (although I think that JC is being a right royal idiot over this one). It also terrifies me that the most likely scenario is another Tory term with more cuts that will disadvantage women and the likely 'sneaking in sideways' of pro self-ID anyway.

Right now the right are pissing themselves laughing at the left tearing itself apart yet again.

The way I see it, Labour can't have my X on the ballot paper until they acknowledge my XX chromosomes.

Jennifer James is guilty of the 'them v us' trend in politics atm which is the very thing that destroys debate.

It stops you listening.

If you have the attitude that you can't learn something from people with different views you close off yourself.

True liberal democracy comes from that. Jennifer James has previously said she isn't a liberal but is a proud socialist. In which case she fails to understand the principles of democracy or outright rejects them. Liberalism is but another word which has had its meaning corrupted and changed. Momentum are big offenders on this score. Not that they are alone in this. You do not need to reject liberalism in order to be a good socialist. The idea that you must if profoundly authoritarian.

If you ever need reminding or inspiring on the subject of what democracy is and what it is not go read a bunch of quotes by Thomas Jefferson. Here are but a few. I love that Jefferson gendered reason as 'her':

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

He who knows best knows how little he knows.

Nothing gives one person so much advantage over another as to remain always cool and unruffled under all circumstances.

Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.

I sincerely believe... that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others.

There is not a truth existing which I fear... or would wish unknown to the whole world.

It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing, than to believe what is wrong.

Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.

It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.

My spoilt vote plan atm is a big female symbol and "votes for women". With the point that despite now legally being allowed, there is no vote I can make as a woman.

I'm not particularly happy about having no place to put my vote. But I'll be damned before I put a cross next to a party who intends to represent the interests of women when their understanding of womanhood is a vacuous performance of gendered stereotypes.

I’m not a Labour voter.

I am, however, convicted, that my rights as a woman are better protected when all parties, opposition included, work for them.
So, in a way, I am in agreement with the “together we win” sentiment by the Momentum fanboy above.
Together as women thought.

Gahhh this thread is like meeting your hero and finding out they’re actually a bit of a twat......

I agree with pp, this isn’t party specific - it’s for us to deal with as humans.

Just as an aside.

I donated to the Go Fund Me.

And almost immediately started getting a massive increase in spam mail, all the new stuff from porn sites and now more recently from the Labour Party itself.

I didn't sign up for any of that, and it seems too much of a coincidence that I donated and this happened.

I will set up a bonfire on that hill and share my tea and biscuits with any other women who show up and are willing to stand with me, because again, this is not a party issue, it's a women's issue.

From one scouser to another JJ Give your head a wobble!

You have support from a lot of women here. Labour, tory, snp ,liberal dem . This issue isn't a single party issue. This issue is a huge issue that affects all women. That's why your crowdfunder did so well. It was linked to from here, because we have been discussing the implications of self ID for over a year and most of us recognised immediately that you had a cause worth funding.
Up to now no newspaper ot tv or radio show would highlight self id for the danger it is, because of the actions of TRA's Its has become a political hot potato.
We have been fighting and organising for over a year trying to get this issue debated and a legal challenge is the perfect tool for this.
Please don't alienate the very women who are willing to support you.
As Germaine Greer once said. "Women dont realise how much men hate them". If you think we can stay in a party and change it from the inside, especially with momentums bully boy and cult like tactics then you need to take off the rose tinted glasses. They would get power and chuck you under the bus faster than you can say when's the next 86a due.
I,ve torn up my Labour card. I cant in any good conscience support a party that doesn't even see me as a legal category that's worthy of laws. I,m politically homeless. But registering why I left was the only way I could get my voice heard. Even if they think I am a dreadful Terf and bigot. I dont give a rats arse tbh. This is my hill and I,m willing to budge over for any woman of any political class to join me.

I am a life long labour voter. I am cancelling my membership and wont be voting labour whilst they support self ID

I joined the Labour Party post-Brexit, only to be told that my money was good enough, but my voice wasn't. No vote in the leadership election for me. Fuck that.

Labour was never going to represent me anyway. Their policies seem ill-defined, they are pro-Brexit, and this issue is just the icing on the cake. I don't really think there is a party for me at the moment.

Exactly how long are women expected to put themselves last for “the greater good”? Seriously, women have been waiting thousands of years, you’re taking the piss asking us to wait any longer.

The reality of elections is that you have 2 groups of roughly equivalent numbers who if they vote will reliably vote for one party or the other, and then a group of floating people in the middle who might vote for either. Convincing the floaters to vote for you can mean a win, but if the people who normally would vote for you stay home then you lose. That is exactly what is going to happen to Labour if they persist with their current strategy. Most women who've always been Labour voters won't vote Tory (and certainly not Green, because in terms of gender they haven't just jumped the shark, they've wrapped it gleefully with ribbons like it's a fucking maypole), they just won't vote at all, or will spoil their ballots. If your people don't vote for you, you lose. That's how it work. So if Labour want to win they need to stop alienating female voters, not alternately lecture and insult them.