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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can you all just lay off trans people

742 replies

cjferg · 10/02/2018 17:11

There is a difference between sex and gender. Some people's align, other people's don't. Some people are biologically female, and their gender doesn't match that and vies versa. Some people don't have a gender. Why do you care so much?

One of my best friends in school was biologically a female. When he 'came out' to me as trans and explained how he had never felt comfortable in his body all I thought (and anyone who knew him) was that I wasn't surprised and that it made a lot of sense and we all got on with our lives. This was about age 17 and he said he had known this since he was a kid (not saying that any kid who says they want to should be able to willy nilly block their hormones, etc, btw)
It wasn't just about 'presenting as a male'. He was actually a male in a female body.
Yes, when he started presenting as male he felt a lot better. I remember he didn't want to go to our prom because of all the dressing up, etc. until we suggested he wear a tux, and it was amazing to see him so comfortable.
But still he hated having tits and having to wear a binder (can be done safely if you get a proper binder and don't just use bandages or w/e so don't even start)
It wasn't enough to just stuff the front of the trousers.
I repeat, he was a man trapped in a woman's body. Not just a cross dressing woman, not just in an experimental phase.

I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender. They are known as 'they' not 'he'or 'she' and knowing them you would in no way think that they are either male or female, again not just about looking a certain way.

I also see a lot of people on here ranting about trans people and they literally only care about transwomen. Genuinely, what has happend to you that you feel so threatened at the thought of someone with a penis being the same gender as you?

Stop ranting about how men are going to use it as an excuse to perv on your kid in a changing room. I'd bet quite a lot that more women will perv on your kid in a changing room than men pretending to be trans will.

Gender is evolving all the time there are no definitive rules to being a man or a woman.

For every thing that you think being a woman is, there will be a woman who disagrees with you.
You say that being a woman means having a uterus - does that make people who've had theirs removed for medical reasons not women?

If being a woman means the ability to have babies then does that mean infertile women aren't women?

If you think being a man is the ability to grow facial hair does that mean that men who can't aren't men?

I read about a woman who had poly cystic ovaries and had a luxurious, thick beard and moustache as a result. Does that mean she is a man or less of a woman? Or should she have continued to try and shave and wax it off and be ashamed of it rather than accept herself the way she was and rock the beard?

Seriously, we've come a long way from being a woman meaning you're your husband's property and having to squirt out babies and clean your whole life. Why are you so determined to go backwards?

Stop using the teeny possibility of a man pretending to be trans to invade women's spaces as a vehicle for your hatred and open your mind enough to at least try and understand the issue, because it might be your kid. It might be your dad. It might be your bff 4eva. If that were the case would you ostracise them from your life and declare them a fraud, or have a little empathy and try and support them through something potentially life changing.

drops mic

OP posts:
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terryleather · 10/02/2018 18:48

Pencils
I was wondering the same thing as I think it was round about this time that Mike plopped last week...

PencilsInSpace · 10/02/2018 18:48

DN4GeekInDerby Flowers

dysphoric people deserve better than this crap

Yes!

Elendon · 10/02/2018 18:47

I love this song but I've no idea what they are talking about. A bit like the OP. Can someone do a tl:dr

AnyFucker · 10/02/2018 18:46

The only people who will gain from extreme transactivism is "fetishists and predatory men"

Totally agree.

Many recent events are appalling to true body dysphorics. I know some. I have no problem with them. Quietly, and without recourse to blaring social media, they have been getting on with their lives for decades. They don't need this shit any more than women do.

LadyMcLadyCrisps · 10/02/2018 18:45

DN4 thanks for that insightful post!

PencilsInSpace · 10/02/2018 18:45

Hysterectomy is a female experience
PCOS is a female experience
The two friends you describe are both female
Gender is oppressive bullshit
We don't want to share our sex segregated spaces with male people for our safety privacy and dignity

Say hello to MikePeterson when you go back to whatever secret FB group is sending you all over here tag-team style.

terryleather · 10/02/2018 18:43

DN4GeekInDerby

That was a very powerful post. Thank you.

SophoclesTheFox · 10/02/2018 18:43

Dn4, that's really powerful. You're right - dysphoric people deserve better than what the vocal transactivists want.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 10/02/2018 18:42

Its like breast ironing Sad

Frequency · 10/02/2018 18:42

[applauds DN4GeekinDerby]

DD wants a binder to hide from men who insist on commenting on her physical appearance and/or telling her she is only gay because she hasn't met the right man yet [eyeroll]

I won't allow her to have one. I'm the most evil mother in the world. The trans ideology is opening our children up to dangerous ideas.

RatRolyPoly · 10/02/2018 18:41

Hey thegoals, I'm sorry I seem evasive - I can see why my darting around these threads might seem this way. Truth is I don't want to get sucked into debating any single issue too heavily without having thought through my whole position as it's all relatively new to me. I'm working on it though, I'm just looking for a gap in the schedule Grin

Popchyk · 10/02/2018 18:40

That is a brilliant post, DN4.

Thanks for taking the time to post that.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 10/02/2018 18:39

I'm a detransitioned person so, yes, I have and still have trans friends and see trans women in female spaces. The honour systems been there for decades as has the fight for single user unisex facilities. I think what is currently being by TRAs hiding behind dysphoric people like me is disgusting. People like me aren't going to be helped by these changes and dysphoric young people are being pushed into unhealthy practices.

Exactly. Actual transsexual people will not benefit from these changes, at all. So those who do fight for the changes, why? Who will they benefit in your eyes? because to me, the only people who will benefit are fetishists and predatory men. I would love someone on 'the other side' to answer the question of HOW we would keep these people out if self-ID went ahead. And also to answer who exactly they reckon self-ID will benefit.

TheButterflyOfTheStorms · 10/02/2018 18:39

A mic drop sounds very like a loud plop. Weird.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 10/02/2018 18:37

Having said debate is respectful I can see some pretty intimidating responses here. If we want to change people's minds we should be talking to them not shouting at them.

Sorry, when someone is as thick and gaslighty as the OP they deserve the responses they have got. The entire OP is nonsense, and the OP is unlikely to be back either, they never do come back and answer any of the valid points raised in relation to their goady posts.

The only one I have seen actually stick around is rat. I disagree with her but at least she makes some attempt to engage, if a bit evasive about the actual problems with self-ID and especially womens sport.

AstraiaLiberty · 10/02/2018 18:37

For every thing that you think being a woman is, there will be a woman who disagrees with you.

I think that a woman is an adult human female. If you disagree with me, can you come back and tell me what you think a woman is, please?

CaptainMarvelDanvers · 10/02/2018 18:36

I have PCOS, I have facial hair issues it doesn’t make me a man. The reason I have PCOS is because I am a woman with elevated androgens that affects my body including cysts on my ovaries which are organs in the female reproductive system, men can’t get it.

I also struggle with my confidence because of the social stereotypes of how a woman is supposed to be and look like. The modern Transgender movement seems to promote these stereotypes.

iamarealwomaaaaaan · 10/02/2018 18:36

Ah, I see the Mermaids plopping brigade has arrived.

(Helen are you ok hun???!)

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 10/02/2018 18:36

not have just been a girl who didn't want to dress up and wanted to wear a tux instead?

I love a tux, wore a variation to last years Christmas do

And one of dds female friends is wearing a tux to prom

DN4GeekinDerby · 10/02/2018 18:30

Please don't drop microphones without previous arrangement with those responsible for the sound equipment. Also, this is more a soapbox step down than a mic drop moment, mic drops are meant to be short speeches that catch people off guard...

I care because single-sex spaces saved my life. They didn't care how I identified. I believe they deserve legal protection. Women discussing the issues with current and proposed legislation is not "laying into" trans people. Some are here.

I'm a detransitioned person so, yes, I have and still have trans friends and see trans women in female spaces. The honour systems been there for decades as has the fight for single user unisex facilities. I think what is currently being by TRAs hiding behind dysphoric people like me is disgusting. People like me aren't going to be helped by these changes and dysphoric young people are being pushed into unhealthy practices.

Binders are one example. They want trans men to wear them while swimming which is the most fucked up advice I've ever heard - sure, let's tell young people to put wear something that restricts breathing while in the water. Binders can be worn safer than bandages but cannot be safe. Wearing them at all risks breathing issues, deformed ribs, damage to chest and back, and so much more. Many trans men have been unable to get top surgery because of the damage of doing it "safely". Been there, done that, and I will fucking start on it if I want because the damage it can cause is a lifetime of pain and no one should ever be told that binding is safe. You can't do proper risk management if you don't list out the risks. Closing our eyes and pretending this is all safe is doing fuck all to protect dysphoric people. I've said it dozens of time in these types of threads -- dysphoric people deserve better than this crap. That the very hormones my trans women friends are buying off the internet without any oversight are limited to a maximum of 5 years for natal women who need hormone therapy because of concerns of the damage it can cause in the long term...calling this stuff safe is bullshit and putting dysphoric lives at risk.

I remember when I came out, the first time, people usually say the same thing each time though. No one was surprised, I looked so much more relaxed, everyone can see I'm blah blah blah. Except...dysphoria is still there, I'd just found a new way to segment it to try to cope. The anxiety and body distress is still there. Yeah, my clothes were more comfortable but inside I was wreck because as a teen because pretty much everything I did was pushed as either proof for or against plus the anxiety of not passing with the well-documented violence against trans men and gender non-conforming women. Being told it was obvious actually hurt quite a lot - it was like being smacked with just how much I failed at trying to be good at something that felt like it should come naturally. The care I received in single-sex spaces from a wide range of women has been an essential part of my care and well-being and I will fight for them.

BuckingFrolicks2 · 10/02/2018 18:29

It does bother me that we are not allowed to even discuss the fact that transwomen / men are not biologically female / male without being called a bigot.

Hear, hear. Trans has become a new religion, based on faith not science.

Trans issues trump every other issue going, it seems to me.

Eg. We know of a married couple divorcing because he's become a trans woman. Poor wife, say I and DO, what a terrible thing to have to deal with, how difficult that must be for the ex wife. But our DD, very pro trans, attacks us with "Where's our sympathy for the ex husband? It's worse for him/her".

Our DS on the other hand thinks the issue of trans is The Issue of 21st century and he bemoans the fact that "no one" is awake to the erosion of liberal values that the trans agenda is affecting.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 10/02/2018 18:27

There is a difference between sex and gender.

Yes we know.

Some people's align, other people's don't. Some people are biologically female, and their gender doesn't match that and vies versa. Some people don't have a gender.

Some people are female but prefer to present themselves in a stereotypical male way and likewise some people are male but feel more comfortable presenting as more feminine. However neither of these things means that they are really males/females stuck in a female/male body . It simply means that are feminine males or masculine females.

You don't actually seem to understand what gender is. Sex is biological but gender simply refers to the stereotypes, behaviours and traits that society expects of us as a result of whether we're male or female.

He was actually a male in a female body.

How does that work then?

Yes, when he started presenting as male he felt a lot better.

You mean when he started presenting himself in a more masculine way.

You cannot present yourself as a male because male refers to sex and has nothing to do with how you present yourself.

You cannot change your sex.

I remember he didn't want to go to our prom because of all the dressing up, etc. until we suggested he wear a tux, and it was amazing to see him so comfortable.

Why did being a girl mean you had to dress up? Why did your friend have to identify as male in order to wear a tux? Could they not have just been a girl who didn't want to dress up and wanted to wear a tux instead?

I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender.

Nobody has a gender because gender is a social construct. Again, you don't seem to actually understand what gender is.

I reject gender as a concept because it is a load of made up damaging crap however I am still a woman because that is what my biology tells me I am.

I also see a lot of people on here ranting about trans people and they literally only care about transwomen.

Because transwomen are the ones who are stamping their feet and throwing tantrums about being allowed in women's spaces. I literally cannot think of a single high profile transman but I can think of several high profile transwomen.

Genuinely, what has happend to you that you feel so threatened at the thought of someone with a penis being the same gender as you?

First of all, please go look up what the word gender means because you're making yourself look daft.

Second of all, I don't want people with dicks sharing my female spaces because I have been both raped and sexually assaulted. HTH.

Stop ranting about how men are going to use it as an excuse to perv on your kid in a changing room

If you're a pervy man and all you have to do in order to be allowed into the female changing room is fill in a form and/or say the words "I am a woman" then why wouldn't you jump at the chance? Genuine question btw.

Gender is evolving all the time there are no definitive rules to being a man or a woman.

Well you're correct in the sense that your sex shouldn't stop you from being interested in whatever you want or wearing whatever you want, but someone with XY chromosome will always be a man and someone with XX chromosomes will always be a woman.

For every thing that you think being a woman is, there will be a woman who disagrees with you.

A woman is simply someone with XX chromosomes. Nothing more and nothing less.

You say that being a woman means having a uterus - does that make people who've had theirs removed for medical reasons not women?

No. It makes them women without uterus's.

If being a woman means the ability to have babies then does that mean infertile women aren't women?

It makes them infertile women.

If you think being a man is the ability to grow facial hair does that mean that men who can't aren't men?

A man is simply someone with XY chromosomes.

A man who can't grow facial hair is exactly that.

I read about a woman who had poly cystic ovaries and had a luxurious, thick beard and moustache as a result. Does that mean she is a man or less of a woman?

She is a woman with excessive facial hair as a result of polycystic ovary syndrome.

Seriously, we've come a long way from being a woman meaning you're your husband's property and having to squirt out babies and clean your whole life. Why are you so determined to go backwards?

Hmm

So let me get this straight; trans idealogy says that if a boy likes pink and dolls then he must be a girl rather than simply accepting him as a boy who likes pink and dols yet we're the ones who want to go backwards?

Righto then.

open your mind enough to at least try and understand the issue

If you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

Oswin · 10/02/2018 18:25

You op are ridiculously wrong and offensive. You ask what has happened to us to nor want to share a space with a penis. Are you so fucking dense you can't work it out for your self. Or do you just not give a shit about women who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Seriously this post is not worthy of a mic drop. It's a pile of shite.

MoseShrute · 10/02/2018 18:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LadyMcLadyCrisps · 10/02/2018 18:24

Mic drop though OP, really? Hmm

Doesnt really support the idea that you are looking for an open and reasoned debate does it?

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