Can you all just lay off trans people

One of the many things about this that really chaps my hide is that my kids, both boys, wore pink and peach in the early eighties and men's dress shirts were pink. It was perfectly ordinary. The sex roles were not being enforced a mere thirty years ago to the degree they are now.

@DN4GeekinDerby your post at Sat 10-Feb-18 18:30:30 is brilliant and I am so very grateful for people like you who are willing to come and share your honest experiences. It makes ploughing through all this stuff worthwhile to find the gems of people being honest about their experiences.

Wow 11 pages & OP never came back. Shocker

MoseShrute
DN4
Thank you in particular for your posts

The problem is gender roles are so entrenched in our society that its no good saying do/wear what the f* you want but don't change gender. Especially for boys/men. I remember a boy at school who was bullied physically and socially for so much as having ANYTHING pink, and wearing girly clothes outwith school. Men and boys might find the female gender role attractive or find masculine norms toxic and that transitioning is the only way out. Thats societies problem, but a problem it remains.

I think of a Star Wars series where men in the space station are wearing dresses due to the supposed complete gender equality of futuristic times, even if biology is unquestionably different. Most of us won't live to see such a society.

When you put it like that, it is bloody chilling.

Any any prosecutions for sex offences will be recorded as crimes committed by women.

None of the other OPs who've started this type of thread have ever come back so I'd be amazed if this one did.

Do you think the OP will come back?

He's probably too busy consoling his weeping friend.

a male hetero sexual fetish becoming in law a female sex characteristic

When you put it like that, it is bloody chilling.

Do you think the OP will come back?

OP
Genuine question: What part of someone is it that is born in the wrong body?

Seriously, we've come a long way from being a woman meaning you're your husband's property and having to squirt out babies and clean your whole life. Why are you so determined to go backwards?

So this is my question, in order to stop a male hetero sexual fetish becoming in law a female sex characteristic I am determined to go back in time and start cleaning and squirting babies. However, will anyone know why I am doing it?

Rat - you might be right that "liking pink" is perhaps a chicken and egg thing. And it's hard to escape some of the narrative that actually comes from parents rather than from the individuals themselves (looking at you , Mrs Jennings.....) so becomes accepted truth by the child who cannot in all reality remember unpoppering their babygro to make a dress when they were 15 months old, or whatever.

larry - I absolutely believe that there is a group of people who feel very strongly that they are "in the wrong body" and they get immense relief by presenting as the opposite sex to the best of their abilities. These are what used to be called transsexuals, and many are pretty gender critical themselves, recognising that they have not changed and cannot change sex.

I also agree that social contagion is playing a huge part in the current wave of teens who identify as trans (along with that perennial, homophobia). When I was at school there were a spate of girls with anorexia; I suspect nowadays that they would be self-IDing as boys.

And yy, SarahCarer, the lack of research (in fact, lack of acknowledgement) about the prevalance of TIM who are autistic and / or are in IT is astounding

The good thing about the ranty plopper threads with the really atrocious mic drops (still laughing!) is that after the first few pissed off responses, some really good conversations ensue.

There clearly is a social contagion, but what I cannot understand is why there isn't more research being done on why there is such a prevalence of gender non conformity in autistic people. When I began to look into this online I found two things 1) extreme male brain theory; the idea that autistic boys have an extreme male brain and autistic girls also have male brains (which falls down a little bit in light of the prevalence of mtf transgenderism in autistic boys!) , and 2) suggestions that autistic children shouldn't be assumed not to be trans just because they insist on delaying their identity change until the hormones kick in! Nothing at all about the obvious answer that autistic children don't pick up on social cues and therefore fail to internalise gender. They are, effectively, gender immune. As a parent of such a child I say it is a marvellous thing to behold and you could never now convince me that gender comes from within or that we choose it.

Olennas,

Yes, but the fact that they are failing to understand the cause and effect of their own behaviour does not mean that there may not be 'something' to trans.

Personally, I suspect (but clearly do not know) that 90% of trans is a combination of mass hysteria and advantage taking by dodgy men. That does not mean that there is not an underlying population of 'genuine' trans people. I do struggle to see how there would suddenly be 1,000% more trans people than when i was growing up, if it is hormonal or genetic.

The issue with pink (and football / soccer) for me is that it is the other way around to your theory: there is a consistent narrative with TIMs that goes "I knew from a young age that I was actually a girl because I liked pink things / playing with dolls / playing soccer." NOT "I play soccer because it affirms that I am a girl" or "wearing pink makes me happy because it signifies to the world that I am a girl"

I find this really interesting, and what I imagine the position is is that when you're young you lack the self-awareness to be able to analyse your behaviour. So you may be subconsciously drawn to signalling yourself as a girl before you come to the conclusion that your doing so is in fact your attempt to express something inside yourself that could also be called "gender". (I say "also" because quite clearly people use gender to mean the social construct, but people also use it to mean something innate which comes from within.)

Pink and blue is clearly a silly example (my boys were made to wear many a pink item when it was cheaper and my oldest is now rather partial to it). As is a particular sport. I totally agree that this is just socialisation. Risk taking, modes of play and social interactions, on the other hand, are more interesting and worthy of study.

The case for transgirls liking pink is not that pink is a fundamentally female colour but that they feel, in some way, female and choose to signal that by adapting behaviours that are typically female.

I agree with some of this: it would be interesting to understand different behaviours, particularly the extent to which hormones like testosterone affect decision-making and impulse control, for example.

The issue with pink (and football / soccer) for me is that it is the other way around to your theory: there is a consistent narrative with TIMs that goes "I knew from a young age that I was actually a girl because I liked pink things / playing with dolls / playing soccer." NOT "I play soccer because it affirms that I am a girl" or "wearing pink makes me happy because it signifies to the world that I am a girl"

I don't feel like many of the messages I read on here are just ranting about trans women.
They're usually expressing concern about the behaviour of some trans activists and the erosion of women's rights.
The posts are often preceded with a statement on how they have no issue with trans people who are getting on living their lives, their issues are with the people who seem to have scared others into believing that it is wrong to criticise anything a trans person says as you're then obviously a transphobe.
They seem to have problems with being told that they are "cis" and as such are not allowed to talk about women's issues because they do not understand the transwomans experience and therefore have nothing worth saying.
They're angry that anything to do with female biology can no longer be discussed as it is triggering to trans women. (As an aside to this, I was in a public toilet today and made use of their hygiene bins, how long til they have to be removed because they upset trans people who have no use for sanpro?)
They're furious that a political party are so hellbent on being viewed as progressive and liberal, that they believed someone with 6 months experience of "being" a woman was qualified to become Woman's Officer, the same someone who thinks it's okay to lead hate campaigns against other women and is likely part of a group who've created a sinister list of women who disagree with their views and aims.
They're outraged by plans to allow Self-Id, as they recognise that it will be abused by men in order to gain access to vulnerable children and women.
They're angry that women's sport is becoming increasingly hard for women to succeed in due to competitors who were previously above average men but as women are outstanding.
They're disgusted by the assaults, threats, bullying and harassment that is taking place. The language used about "erasing" us and other such delights.
I can't be bothered to go on about the focus on an attractive appearance, paedophile and abuse jokes, lady penises, the cotton ceiling and so much other shit that is often linked to these threads.
You can fuck off with your dropped mic, trans people deserve equal rights they don't deserve to take my rights.

I posted this on a different thread but want to post it here too...

As the goalposts keep being changed regarding what is a woman, this is opening up women's spaces to, well actually, EVERYONE!

So if TIMs want to define themselves as women, then spaces should be divided based on chromosomes, it seems to be the only fair way. Chromosomes can not be altered and are therefore a biological way to create a division. The choices for sports/changing rooms/prisons/hospital wards/refuges/spas, etc would be based on XX or XY, where anyone who didn't wish to go with their chromosomes would have an alternate third space.

Baffling that people are prepared to argue that corpus callosum thickness might be hugely meaningful, but having a dick isn't.

Just like when Evan Urquhart, in his article for Slate, states that breasts are just "a bit of extra tissue".

All we TERFS want is to preserve is sex discrimination law, women's private spaces and so on, to be on the basis of biological sex - not self declared gender.

Then why are you arguing about primate studies, Larry?

Terf,

Your last post does not make sense.

I am against replacing sex with gender in law.

That'll do, Juzza.

Larry - I'll repeat - biological sex is scientifically quantifiable and verifiable. Gender is not. And we are currently protected in law from discrimination due to sex.

Can you explain why you are arguing with women on this thread when they do not 'biological sex' to be replaced with 'gender' in law?