Can you all just lay off trans people

I understand social construct, don't worry, it was really interesting to see how it is being used in the context of this debate though.

So here's the problem; take that dollar bill example. There are two things, the physicality of the object and the social construct which gives it its "meaning", correct? And the idea is that that's the same for people; we have a particular physical reality and then there's an external social construct that applies "gender" to our physical "sex", right?

So to summarise, two things, only two things, physical sex and external gender, am I understanding that correctly?

@RatRolyPoly I'm listening. But just to say I had no input to that web link. I think it just goes Some way to explaining social construct.

Ah, well at least you're superior to everyone equally Sally, can't argue with that

Well, the only thing that the posters post has done for me, is to confirm my original thoughts.

That they haven't a clue what they are talking about.

I am not a 'feminist', have never been a feminist and NEVER will be. I refuse to pander to them in the slightest.

I am all woman though, much more than woman than every single feminist that I have met.

As for 'trans' - they are just living out their fetishes. Pure and simple.

Ah, Italiangreyhound, I'm glad I've found you! And that you've posted that Tumblr again as I'd like to break it down with you. I think that will go some way to not only explaining my position but may also help answer some of the questions you direct at Larry (if you don't mind some cross-input Larry.)

You see to my mind there is quite a glaring error with it, which I can easily point out with reference to the "dollar bill" example.

Contemporary,

It is good to at least be slightly open minded about neurological questions.

Most scientists feel that gender differences are caused by the interaction between genes, hormones and environment, and it is very hard to pull them apart.

You might care to read this critique of the oft quoted (on these boards) Delusions of Gender-Cordelia Fine

thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-23/edition-11/book-reviews

It is clearly written by one of the scientists she takes issue with. However, the counterpoints stand in their own right and show her bias.

You could also look at the interesting book Brain Gender by Melissa Hines, a neuroscientist at Cambridge University, who argues that it is extremely hard to pull apart DNA, hormones and societal influence in gendered behaviour.

Another interesting article is:

animalwise.org/2012/01/26/born-this-way-gender-based-toy-preferences-in-primates/

This links to three (referenced) primate based studies. Interestingly, 6 of the seven authors are female, so I don't think this is a conspiracy.

I will "lay off trans people" when they accept this...

fairplayforwomen.com/whomever-may-concern-re-gender-identity/

Gender Identity politics is a 'woke' way of saying 'she was asking for it' and 'boys will be boys'. It claims that the reason we as a sex class are oppressed is innate. It is a homophobic, racist, sexist ideology so no, I wont be giving it a rest in my opposition to it anytime soon. Why don't you just say 'woman, shhh, the men don't like it'?

OP your age makes me believe that you come from a position of kind ignorance rather than a Machiavellian double-think. May I suggest that you read Saini, Inferior , Fine, Delusions of Gender, Fine Testosterone Rex ,Dworkin, Pornography , Millet, Sexual Politics as a start.
Sister Outrider has just published a great essay on Womanhood which outlines the feminist position and where we believe genderism and queer theory falls dangerously short in its analysis.
Genderists have bought into a sexist lie which is supported by neo-liberalism. Hyper-individualism prevents a structural analysis and class challenge to oppression. Arguably, feminism and black lives matter are the last bastions of class analysis against systematic injustice.
In light of this, I wont be silenced anytime soon.

Can you all just lay off trans people

I'm not on the case of trans people. I'm on the case of people who are in denial of reality and are happy to get rid of women's rights in pursuit of gaining a status above women and generally just don't give a shit about women.

I wish they would lay off women. They are not the victims they make themselves out to be in the way they are.

I accept trans people as trans people. I do not accept them as being something they are not. Because you can not escape the limits of your own existence even if you try to.

Scientist are just people with all the biases that comes with.

Yes,I was thinking that - scientists aren't above social conditioning or bias free,though you'd hope they'd be more aware than average of it.

Separately,I've just read again the phrase "squirt out babies" and I think it is an offensive and denigrating phrase.Not saying at all that giving birth is the be all and end all of being a woman,but it is something that woman as a class do.Its important - to society and to many of us individually.It is not something like cleaning,with which OP matches it.

It strikes me that the scientists doing the study are not all innately stupider than those who keep posting on this board 'gender is a social construct'. They clearly feel it is worth looking at.

Male scientists have been trying to prove women are just shit at STEM for years... Seems to be dying out as more women have ironically gone in to stem careers though 😁

Still get some who think black people have inferior brains. Scientist are just people with all the biases that comes with.

Thank you Stop I will get that. We got as far as the CAMHS screening appointment for a Tavistock referral but I managed to bodyswerve it thanks to insight from Mumsnet feminists. I have emphasised over and over again that she is in the wrong world not the wrong body and she seems comfortable with that explanation now. My being gender critical has helped her a lot I think because she is aware of attempts to push gender on her (she sees it when other kids don't) and she knows I'm her ally and can see it too. Unfortunately her growing up talk at school was massively gendered and this caused a big problem as she began to associate puberty with femininity. If I had my time again I'd have withdrawn her from that and done it my way.

Sarah, have you read The Girl With The Curly Hair by Alis Rowe? It's a good read for anyone with a teenager/ young adult with ASD in general. In it she describes her struggle with gender identity, and how she comes to the conclusion that she is a "person in a female body". I think your comment of people with ASD being immune to gender is very apt.
My transidentifying DD also fits that description, just hoping that by the time she reaches the top of the waiting list for the GID Clinic that some of the common sense and critical thinking shown by the psychiatrist posting earlier in this thread has made its way there.

I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender. They are known as 'they' not 'he'or 'she' and knowing them you would in no way think that they are either male or female, again not just about looking a certain way.

Pretty sure I would think that they're one or the other, OP. When most of us look at a person we see their sex, rather than their mystical inner gender essence.

Genuinely, what has happend to you that you feel so threatened at the thought of someone with a penis being the same gender as you?

I've lost count of the number of times I have been assaulted, mostly sexual but not all, but always done by someone with a penis who is bigger and stronger than me.

Forgive me for not wanting to undress in the presence of someone with a penis.

@italiangreyhound yes a sense of not being at home in the world can contribute as well but that in itself comes partly from not being able to pick up on social cues. My dd kind of presented as dysphoric at one stage but she was actually afraid of what she would become (puberty) rather than what she was. Mixing the transgender narrative with a promise of puberty blockers is a very tempting combination for an ASD family whose child is absolutely terrified of the changes that are coming to their body. Of course, what she really wanted was to remain a child. And it isn't just girls with ASD that are affected. Her male autistic friend was visiting us once, around 12 yrs old and high functioning, he looks at my toddler son who has short hair, a fairly well known boys name and was wearing blue clothes that day, and asks us "is (ds name) a boy or a girl?"

Rosie - the argument goes that there is no such thing as "the wrong body" because if an individual feels that they are female then the body they have is automatically female. Even if that body is comprised of XY chromosomes, has a penis, a prostate and an Adam's apple. It is still a female body. Because the person whose body it is says that they are female.

Trans people who pursue the "wrong body" line of thinking and seek medical intervention to change their body can be derided as "truscum" (google it if you are not faint of heart)

I cannot get the sense of it either, Rosie. I think they may be taking the piss.

FYI, you are aware that your position that trans people are in the 'wrong body' is terribly transphobic under the current vocal trans ideology?

Very interesting conversation. Can someone explain this for me. Thanks!

MoseShrute, is it not possible for a boy/man to be ASD and have gender dysphoria? Or are they mutually exclusive in your view? I personally know one transwoman who is ASD and hear there are disproportionately large numbers, whether diagnosed or not, GRC or not. Or if their ASD has contributed to dysphoric feelings, then does it matter?

Sex roles, what you call gendered behavior, varies from culture to culture which clearly demonstrates that beyond reproductive roles there is no innate gendered behavior.

@SarahCarer "Nothing at all about the obvious answer that autistic children don't pick up on social cues and therefore fail to internalise gender. They are, effectively, gender immune. As a parent of such a child I say it is a marvellous thing to behold and you could never now convince me that gender comes from within or that we choose it."

This is an interesting take on the subject. I also wonder about the fact that autistic people do not necessarily feel at home in the world and may conclude they are not at home in their own skin.

Completely agree @OlennasWimple re 'social contagion', it is very dangerous indeed.

Boy George when nobody cared about gender. Amazing.

@larrygrylls "I can link to plenty of research that shows that gendered behaviour is innate." Please do.

But a the same time can you explain how something that varies in time and space can actually be innate to humans?

A man in a powdered wig and ruffles was performing masculinity in the reign of Louie X1V, but in another location or at another time what it meant to perform masculinity meant something very different.

I personally do think some males feel much better presenting as females and vice versa, this means they are taking those things that society says are 'feminine' and using them to project a feminine image, I get that. It may well be true too of females who feel very disenfranchised from being women.

Luckily for young women who are attracted to other women and feel they want to appear in a very butch way, there is a community of other butch lesbians and there is a place to feel more at home. I am told by my friend who is an HSTS (Homosexual Transexual) that the gay community is not very welcoming of effeminate gay men, and since efemijnate gay men are (apparently) attracted to straight men, I can see why those who are able to pass as women may well chose to transition early.

However, being attracted to things that are normally associated with the opposite sex, or being attracted to things that are normally associated with one's own sex, is not IMHO proof that these likes are innate. I expect you've seen this explanation of social construct, I think it works well.

snowflakeespecial.tumblr.com/post/114684943185/social-construct-masterpost

The important thing is that in our society we have no further need of gender, women are working out it is used to keep us down, wearing high crippling heels, worrying about our nails etc etc. Now we get a say, we can say no to it all. So anyone can wear those shoes, or nails, or dresses or trousers, and it can mean nothing.

Therefore only those who have actual body dysforia will need to have any medical intervention.

But with or without medical intervention males remain male and females remain female.