BBC debates women's safety - without any women

Biological men will be allowed to speak for women if they claim to ID as female. A balancing female voice is no longer necessary because men now are women - and actual women need to shut up & get used to it

This. This is why I will no longer go along with the polite social lie that a man, no matter how convinced or upset or hurt he may be about it, CANNOT BE A WOMAN. I accept, sympathise and support people with gender dysphoria, I accept the right of anyone to dress and name themselves and live as they choose, but not to take on the legal status of something they are in fact not. Not at the cost of 51% of the population.

Candles - no, I don't think so.

It was interesting to hear PL talking at length rather than their usual cod-journalism for the Guardian or in 280 characters on Twitter. And NR came closer to challenging the pervading narrative than other presenters have done in the past - perhaps this is the start of the oil tanker changing direction, as people start to wake up to the full implications of the proposed changes (as well as what is going on already in the name of transgenderism).

Yes I thought NR raised very pertinent points but was scared of being painted as offensive by pursuing them, and let PL constantly obsfucate and avoid the questions. Most crucially, asking directly "what is a woman", which question PL somehow within the next breath answered with the stat that 45% of trans people are suicidal.

Problem is that if even asking such questions is presented as transphobic/bigoted/equivalent of racism, regardless of what the answer is, then no mainstream media or politician is ever going to ask them.

There is one comment saying men aren't going to dress up as women just to gain access to toilets etc.

People seriously don't realise that they don't have to. They can just be men who still dress and look like men yet claim they are women!

I think Nick Robinson really tried hard to expose the rigid #nodebate approach of PL. And to a certain extent he succeeded. He didn't back down and he did come back to issues about women's rights.
What was interesting was how this was totally personal to PL. Zero interest in society, justice, women's rights - all about wanting their own validation and rights. Totally self absorbed.
With the added 'wish' that children shouldn't have to go through what PL went through as a child. I can see that there would be no point in attempting to have a debate as PL wouldn't. She was furious when he raised the issue Marie Dean (the trans poster girl male sex offender wanting access to a women's prison) - didn't understand why he was asking.
I thought it fascinating for the exposure of the narcissistic approach - even when he suggested that if you want to change laws, you have to expect questions PL just dismissed it.

I hope that he's going to interview a gender critical woman for balance - but ideally not one of the current people involved in the Labour party issues? Someone perhaps concerned about children? (given that PL focussed so much on children). Maybe Stephanie Davies-Arai or someone like that?

I'm going to listen to it later.

It's not going to wind me up too much is it?

Datun - have you listened to the podcast? It's worth it, actually. Not least because NR doesn't really pussy-foot around, and he notes that after he drew the interview to a conclusion they carried on talking for a very long time.

Some of that makes it on to the podcast, including where PL claims that he didn't know that he was going to get a "grilling" and it's not fair as he's not a politician. To which NR responds that PL is trying to make political change eg through advocating for self-ID, which gets PL in a bit of a pickle because it's either a) agree that they are supporting self-ID which is a political issue; or b) say that they are not supporting self-ID which probably means that PL is a nasty, gate-keeping, medicalising TERF (or something)

Most interestingly, there's no direct reference to the programme on PL's own Twitter feed, and it's very unusual for them not to promote something that they have been in...

I know you’re not having a go and I know you’re angry

It’s a huge problem that the tantrum tendency seems to be influencing the way the transgender issue is discussed publicly.

But this is the problem isn't it, hipsterfun?

People pussy foot around the issue on air because they are being held to ransom The threat of a tantrum.

Let's have five, ten, twenty transwomen like Paris walk out of the studio being wholly unable to answer any questions.

Like if transwomen are women, what definition is she bloody using?

Let the world see the utter incoherence.

I'm not having a go, I'm just so bloody angry.

Half an hour of crying and accusations wouldn’t make a good podcast. Assuming the person didn’t walk out in a display of self-righteousness.

It’s always going to be difficult to get an interview, especially a long one, out of somebody you suspect will lose their shit if pressed too hard for a coherent position

Why can't they lose their shit?

I would ask all the bloody questions to expose any shit losing.

This bloody nonsense about I won't debate my right to exist. Absolute crap.

It's not your right to exist, Paris, it's your right to demand that we accept your belief system.

And I would absolutely ask that question.

i've retweeted and tweeted a bit. I am an intelligent woman but tie myself up in knots on this stuff! But I will keep going!

Good tip, duly noted

It’s always going to be difficult to get an interview, especially a long one, out of somebody you suspect will lose their shit if pressed too hard for a coherent position. I suspect NR was having to walk the finest of fine lines.

It gets really feisty at about 35 mins

I will listen later (at PILs now and not really up for a gender critical debate). Pleased to hear NR gives PL a bit of a hard time. I've always thought he was weapons grade smart and was disappointed to think he'd drunk the kool-aid

Oh.. the lack of lefty male awareness in that twitter thread. Man uses muslim women to support transwomen. Actual muslim women replies. Radio silence!

You are not concerned with anyones rights but yourself. Hence why your battle right now is about trans toilets and shortlists instead of empowering trans women, muslim women or black women who arguably are the most disenfranchised among our society right now.
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Cleti‏
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Replying to @WittersDev @LuckyStubbs and 2 others
Muslim woman here. Am I allowed to speak or is it a male- only discussion? It is very simple: you allow males in female bathrooms, gyms, swimming sessions, I can't use them anymore, along with many women of other faiths and backgrounds. But thanks for empowering me mate!

Two interesting nuggets

1. PL does not have a GRC, but managed to get a passport that says "female" on the basis of a doctor's letter [comment: I think this is outrageous. A GRC should be the basic prerequisite for getting a passport in one's preferred sex, if it is different to the one on the birth certificate]

2. PL thinks that "older people" are out of step with what young people think now about gender. He defines these as people in their "40s and 50s"

Listening now. Paris comes up with this nugget "GRA only affects ME no body else. Women sexually attack others so why don't you ban lesbians from prisons?" Nick is actually quite good although he lets Paris get away with speaking utter shit. Paris is in complete denial and comes over as self obsessed and thick.

Paris refuses to debate with anyone who disagrees with them on this issue because they know they will get a roasting (and not the sort of roasting they are into either).

They will only do stuff where they know that no one will ask anything too tricky.

It's worth a listen, BTW. PL is on from about 5 mins in.

I'm glad Nick mentioned that PL served time in prison: this rather tends to get glossed over in the "you're so brave!" narrative

The bit at the end is funny (36:45); Paris kicks off about being ‘interrogated’ and ‘grilled’. Paris, it was a fucking interview, not a recorded monologue with an audience of one.

I'm glad someone has taken the time to actually listen hipster. I can't listen to the rest just now but I'm satisfied it's not something that warrants all this fuss.

I'm looking forward to Sarah Montague and Mishal Hussein discussing what is the best approach to reducing the rates prostate cancer, followed by a chat about erectile dysfunction and what the NHS should and shouldn't fund.