Was Greer Right When She Said Men Hate Women?

UpABitLate

Very well put. Particularly that low grade hostility, I've seen men look at groups of women having a laugh with indisputable hatred, heard vile things about ex partners or women who have rejected them. Countless stories about harassment by men to women walking down the street. Been called a 'stuck up bitch' more times than I can remember. But no, there's no hatred?? 🤔

On the terminology

I think that lots of men don't really see women as full people, actual 3D individuals with their own thoughts, interests, beliefs, desires, in the same way as they do men

I also think that a lot of men have a sort of low grade hostility to women which you can find if you scratch the surface, the ones who don't like it when women disagree with them, who make nasty comments about women as a group, or jokes, the ones who enjoy porn that degrades women, or who laugh at depictions of women being degraded or hurt

Then there are a smaller number who are outright upfront hostile - enough that we have all met them, men who react with anger to the slightest thing, who get very aggressive if rejected gently, who shout abuse at women, that sort of thing

Then you have a minority but still fairly big group who carry out street harassment, "minor" sexual offences, who enjoy upsetting intimidating assaultng women and girls as they go about their lives, or in the workplace or home. much overlap with the previous group

then you have the ones who commit DV, rape, murder us. Still way too many of those.

So while "hate" is a term that some people may have issues with, certainly it's undeniable that large numbers of men have a problem with women and girls, from putting us down, to deliberately upsetting us, to enjoying seeing us humiliated especailly sexually, to raping and murdering us.

That's what the quote at the beginning is shorthand for. That and the fact that men control everything and if they wanted to stop it they could, but they don't. So, what do you call that? It's not love is it. And it's not really indifference - if you bring in the laws around the world specifically to make life difficult for us - to restrict our freedoms, that points in the direction of a desire to make things worse for us than they need to be. To control. So, pointing towards something not positive towards women at a societal level.

Women being given the news first about the empty tomb and being given the task of telling others ( regardless of what happened, the fact is it wasn't edited out), Jesus with the status of a teacher talking to women, women being named as leaders in the some of the early churches

Wow, imagine being told first despite having a vagina... OK, I am kidding. I don't know why it says what it says in the bible, but the same book has been used to oppress women for centuries and still is. We also had female queens throughout the centuries and they ruled countries, yet ordinary women were unable to vote and were unable to become doctors or lawyers, despite passing all their exams.

The bible runs the whole gamut - from lot giving his daughters to the mob to the yes genuinely progressive bits of New Testament.
The books that were included were decided by committee.

What’s key though is that those progressive messages were then co opted by a patriarchal power structure so that Christianity was just as oppressive to women as all the other major religions.

For younger women, say mainly under 45, often the hatred is not visible because they are deemed to be sexually attractive and can get ahead on that basis

This. You think you're valued on the same basis as your male peers so you think you have equality. You notice that you're being sleazed on more, but you think that's a separate problem. It's not until later you realise that the being valued and the being sleazed on were closely related and that now you're no longer sleazed on you're no longer valued either.

(Not all workplaces are like this etc)

cosmos239

Yes you may be right, however it was definitely men who got hold of the bible and let's say, reworked it to benefit men which it has done ever since.

Just catching up and @missy's wiki thing

I mentioned that there is evidence that women do each other down in workplaces that are majority male before you started posting links about relational aggression

Are you reading other poeple's posts?

p.s. lettucespray. Regardless of whether you believe it or not, what was written down in around the first century ad, in the gospels of the bible was actually really countercultural. Women being given the news first about the empty tomb and being given the task of telling others ( regardless of what happened, the fact is it wasn't edited out), Jesus with the status of a teacher talking to women, women being named as leaders in the some of the early churches .... all normal to us now but SHOCKING in that culture at that time. The bible is absolutely not anti women. Ask any unbiased theologian and there are many out there who don't believe it's true but none the less are experts on it as a historical document.

Yup, krabby I hear you. The way I was treated made me want to spit. And that’s as an educated, eloquent person who is quasi medical and can argue the toss.

This time round I’ve switched practices to a female-run private one. They have gynaes on site (3 week wait to see a doc at the other one) and I was very straightforward with the midwife about how I’d been treated last time and how I would prefer it to be this time. So far so good, the difference in treatment has been astounding.

I think I’ve become more feminist as I’ve aged lettuce less desire to please, knowing my own mind more and having the idealism knocked out of me. Friends say similar. Cynicism with age perhaps? There’s a definite ‘cool girl/bro culture’ thing with some younger women. I suspect fewer older ones.
Also feminist thought has been stripped from universities in a big way - women’s studies is now gender studies and has been hijavked somewhat. Female academics I know dare not speak their minds for fear of mob/twitter denunciation. Students no longer want to be challenged they want safe spaces and echo chambers. By the time they realise what’s happening it will be too late

Do we think this is a generation thing, possibly that it is generally younger women who don't believe men hate us. I apologise if I'm wrong Missy but are you young, as in under 25??

I do think this is a good point though. For younger women, say mainly under 45, often the hatred is not visible because they are deemed to be sexually attractive and can get ahead on that basis. It can sometimes only be obvious once you assume a form that is no longer pleasing to the patriarchy- e.g. if you are too fat, too old or look too much like a lesbian. THEN you can start to see more clearly how little you are valued, despite the many years you spent sticking up for the patriarchy and denying that oppression was a thing.

SusanBunch

Yes definitely. I bring up the age issue because I have generally noticed some younger women being quite dismissive of feminism in general. They believe they have achieved equality and that 'girl power' worked......it so didn't.

Maybe Lettuce although I am comparatively young. Not under 25 though. I developed my feminist beliefs quite early on. Probably spurred on by the fact that my dad was a massive shit and my maternal grandfather an even bigger one. So my role models were always mainly female and I had seen for myself the violence and hatred that men could perpetrate. My dad was quite openly misogynistic as well.

I do find it odd that missy cannot even bring herself to say that there is oppression. Women have to be the only oppressed group that actively apologises for their oppressors and denies that there is a problem.

In answer to the original question. No! All people men and women are primarily selfish and want to put their interests first. ( I know we can all subvert that impulse to temporarily put others first). Therefore when men can further their own interests by oppressing women they will ( unless conscience intervenes) if women can further their own interests by saying all men hate them they will. I also suspect there may be an element of the phrase 'most men hate most women they meet sometimes' ( and vice versa) doesn't grab as much attention or sell as many books / column inches etc.!

Do we think this is a generation thing, possibly that it is generally younger women who don't believe men hate us. I apologise if I'm wrong Missy but are you young, as in under 25??

i think the hate is fear- of our incredible power. We bear life. We have true strength because we are in touch with our feelings and we move like rivers of water through under and around obstacles. They want to contain and control our power. I wish more women would understand this. Men should not be placed at the head of households- they often cannot cope and become destructive. They are much better working alongside women and serving the common good rather than being given a ruling role.

Backenette I’d forgotten the two very low doses of oramorph I was allowed that a. barely touched the sides and b. I had to stop taking for 24 hours if I wanted to leave the hospital. Wouldn’t give me ibuprofen as I have asthma. The consultants seemed exasperated but offered no alternative. My dh had to go out and buy me a hot water bottle for the cramp type pain and I had a peppermint tea.

Women wants a c section - This is very serious surgery my dear with lots of potential risks and complications - are you sure you understand what you’re asking for? Have some mandatory counselling and numerous appointment to check you want to go ahead with this.

Woman has c-section - Here’s two paracetamol love and you need to pick that baby up yourself whilst holding your insides in. What’s your problem? You’ve only had a baby and you need to get used to it.

My dad and both my brothers and my ex bil hate/hated me. I have been harassed and abused by men countless times. That is nothing unusual is it? I have a few very dear male friends/relatives but no male in my household and never will be again. It is true.

Susan,
thats a big topic and I'm running out of steam! Off to watch tv for a bit now me thinks.

I was given paracetamol and nothing else after elcs because I was breastfeeding. It’s torture to provide inadequate pain relief after surgery imho and I’d be astounded if it happens to any other patient group.

It’s actully worse than that. There ARE safe painkillers. You can take ibuprofen and very short term doses of oral morphine quite safely. But you’re not - because women are expected to cope.

No other post surgery group would be, and there is zero clinical reasoning for it.

It’s like hg. I was vomiting up to a dozen times a day. Dehydrated. Horribly sick. There are drugs that have a proven safety record in pregnancy- and yet again and again I was told there wasn’t, I had to basically say ‘look mate, I do this for a living, open up this database, read this then justify to me why I can’t have it.’
No man walking into the gp with 12x plus a day vomiting for months in end would be told to put up with it. The misogyny is astounding.

Okay, what about the term 'oppression' seeing as you are getting really hung up on the term hate? Do you believe that women as a class are oppressed by men and that men in general do not see women as their equals?

I'm not dismissing problems- only stating that the term men hate women is too broad to look at objectively and that caution is needed when making such a vast generalisation.

See the scandal on vaginal mesh for how dismissive the medical industry is of women.

My dh is I think 3rd generation (definitely 2nd gen) of men that treat women like people and it really shows. We do fall into gender roles sometimes but we talk about it and we try to change because he sees it is unfair for example for all the cooking and cleaning to fall to me, or the kids social lives or other women’s work type stuff. I’m from a family that embraces women’s work and I’m sure if I were a man I would struggle to not see women as there for me, to just do things for me and not see women as real people who want to do things for themselves like I as a man do. Based on the adults I know the men range from ones like my dh to utter unreconstructed misogynists. Every man (or woman) who says things like women aren’t as funny as men, women aren’t as good as men at being in charge, women can’t cope with responsibility because of their emotions, women are better at unpaid work like housework and childcare, women are best off in the home, women lie about being raped, women provoke men to attack and abuse them etc does not like women, does not respect women and does not see women as people.

As an aside, it’s criminal that drugs aren’t tested so women can use them. I was given paracetamol and nothing else after elcs because I was breastfeeding. It’s torture to provide inadequate pain relief after surgery imho and I’d be astounded if it happens to any other patient group.

I would also encourage you missy to go and read the daily mail comments (if you can bear it because by the gods, it’s a sewer..) on any article that mentions feminism. Pure, pure hatred.

that science in general has been developed by men- it's only in the past 50 years or so that women have had any input at all.

Correct. Look what happened to Hypatia. Not just excluded but actively persecuted and killed. Look at the exclusion of Rosalind Franklin. Many brilliant women have been treated appallingly

I think Lavoisier’s wife is suspected of doing half his stuff. Think of the talent we’ve missed over the years.