Was Greer Right When She Said Men Hate Women?

What do you suggest, overnight? That we express our anger the way men do by killing people?
Best we express it here and at the ballot box, I think.

“If it weren't for women discussing this stuff - realising this stuff in the past - we still wouldn't be able to own property, or have the vote.“
There’s no discussion on here though though is there.Just angry people making generalisations , like terftasric being desperate to be a victim. It’s pointless arguing (and no no I’m not a man) given the narrow mindedness of people on here.

Overnightangel

I think it's back to that MRA site for you deary.

Reminder:

What male hatred of women (and other men too - male violence is a bit of a scatter gun) looks like: 2 women a week murdered by their partner or former partners; 85,000 women a year raped (and 12,000 men a year raped by other men).

What female "hatred" of men looks like: women getting annoyed about the above.

Not really equivalent, are they, even for the spectacularly hard-of-thinking (that's you, overnight, in case you hadn't worked that out).

Oh you’re a chap.
Right.

Feminism doesn’t hate individual men. It wants to take down the patriarchy. My personal view is that the patriarchy hurts plenty of men too.

I miss Ray.........

You do sound very angry, overnightangel - almost incoherently so.

You know, women are allowed to talk about misogyny, how it affects us as half the human race. We're allowed to talk about oppression, how women have been (and still are, the world over) treated as chattel, or lesser humans.

If it weren't for women discussing this stuff - realising this stuff in the past - we still wouldn't be able to own property, or have the vote.

overnightangel pretty sure that this thread is quite clear that there is a certain subset of men that is hated. Also quite clear from your behavior that you qualify for that subset. Your post is thus rather daft and, ironically, embarrassing for you. If I have learned anything browsing MN, fools are not suffered easily. Do yourself a favor and leave, before your ego is bruised even more.

Oh look here is a man who has come here to educate all us women.

Please do expand on the statistics for violent behaviour and sexual violence and their correlation to the male sex ?

If you hate men just have the fucking onvictioncto say it, ironic that people call men boring when we have to listen to the same old shit constantly about men being inherently bad. Embarrassing , predudiced lies

Whomp! There it is! Maybe pick who you spend your time with more circumspectly.

The proof of the lifetime of conditioning in cultural misogyny is when a man does something bad to a woman. Can a "nice man" or a "nice woman friend" resist wondering and then at some point asking what we did to cause it, encourage it, or bring it on ourselves.
1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.

“My point was even the really really nice men have some misogyny in them.
Of course it is because it’s a cultural thing and both men and women have been brought up in that environment and therefore have assimilated all of those values.
That’s why women can be seen and heard being very misogynistic. And they accept so much too.

Absolutely nothing to do with criminality and race.

My point was even the really really nice men have some misogyny in them

But it’s not that those men are nasty themselves or anything, but that most men have been taught at some point in their lives that woman = weak and that weakness is not a good thing. Not a manly thing.

Don’t be a girl. Boys are taught to define manhood as what girls are not.

“My point was even the really really nice men have some misogyny in them. “
Utter bollocks. Waiting for you to say all black people have some element of criminality in them. You’re going down a dangerous road with your bullshit stereotyping. And I’m the one who gets called naive.
Maybe pick who you spend your time with more circumspectly.

"I find the idea that all attractive / young women somehow have this knowledge and what's more than that they use it to be really dodgy.

Yes, it's a dodgy idea to verbalise, because men will, on the whole, jump on that and say "ha!see! I knew it!".
But it does happen, although I'm not sure how much young women actually realise that is why men are nice to them, or let them get away with stuff, or give them preferential treatment."

Yes this is kind of the point - maybe pretty girls do get stuff (whatever it might be) but lots of them aren't looking for it and if it happens they aren't aware it's happening. The spin that men put on this is that all pretty women are knowing, manipulative, and trying to get stuff from men. I was attractive when young and I disliked this type of attention, I got in trouble, really, for not smiling prettily and looking impressed when more powerful men expected me to. If people (men) gave me stuff then it wasn't because I was trying - and therefore that's not on me, is it.

I did get served in pubs incredibly quickly which doesn't happen any more - at the time I put it down to making eye contact and smiling rather than dismissively waving notes, and I'm still not sure it wasn't that as women served me really quickly then too but it certainly doesn't happen any more!

Anyway point is - men paint a picture of women and girls who they deem attractive of being inherently exploitative, manipulative and sexually knowing, even when we are very young (underage). This is a lie and a dangerous one, all it is, is an excuse for men to treat us badly up to and includign rape (she knew what she was getting into / she was asking for it).

Certainly there are women who do exploit their looks and men too - but the story goes only 1 way.

Weeelll. At the moment, for me, yes, it's having money, because money gives you choices, and property and freedom, and it insulates your kids from future poverty.
Being healthy etc is all good, but women need economic power. Or I do, at any rate!

Also what is 'success'? Is it having loads of money? That's how it's measured in our culture and therefore women aren't as successful.

But what if we redefined success so that raising children to be well and healthy was enough. Not to have a long career and get rich. Because lots of women can't do that so if we play at those rules we'll always 'lose'. If we say success is health and happiness we can have a shot at being valued when we chose to raise kids over pursuing a career.

It's not inherent in men to belittle and abuse women. It's a cultural thing. That's why some of the aggressive sexual behaviour edges off when you get older. You become a person with property and therefore aren't seen as easy pickings to scapegoat anymore.

Whilst I've experienced lots of nasty abuse from the more aggressive males, I've experience sexism at some level from most men and also some women.

The me too campaign and everyday sexism was my daily experience from about 13 until mid thirties. But all along there is the usual derogatory stuff we seem to accept as normal. Like the shit work at home being beneath some men even when you point it out. Or the watching of films and TV programmes that have gratuitous violence against women. Die hard etc. Rape scenes like in taken where the women are property of either the father of the traffickers. How women and girls are represented in the media as assistants to the men or objectified. We've all been sucked into it. I find watching violence in films awful but I've been laughed at for feeling this way. It's horrible and weird.

And in our daily media nationally or locally. Little ongoing things like who cleans the toilet in the TV ads. The language used around women. Dancing on ice having the female ice skaters girating to all the single ladies as if it's empowering. It all feels like we're constantly ridiculed.

It's similar to experiencing scapegoating in a dysfunctional family or relationship. I don't think it's hate as such apart from those who have antisocial dis orders. It's more we're dysfunctional and we scapegoat women, children and others who aren't as physically strong.

I 100% agree with that Krabby. Divide and conquer.
I recognise a lot of what you say to Olenna, especially about the women taking a back seat and the mediocre men rising to the top.
My Oh so successful male friend thinks that such men (him) are where they are because of hard work and talent. I think it's because their face fits, and because their female counterparts have taken a back seat due to kids so they are no longer competition.
I wish women wouldn't do that, but I get why they do.

I think there’s two sides to the men like young pretty women shtick. I think they like young pretty women because they are nice to look at but also because young women are more naive and less cynical so will put up with more shite. I also think young pretty women are artificially set up against older women as anything older women say that is cautionary regarding men is dismissed with the reasoning being they are jealous of young pretty women and bitter in their old age.

IfNot - your colleague was me, back in the day. The amount of senior men who would take me for lunch or buy me a drink was quite astounding - and I thought that all they really wanted to do was be a good mentor, help a young colleague succeed in their career....

When I was younger I did a lot of things that make my middle-aged self look back and cringe (like spoiling my ballot paper for the student union Women's Officer, as I thought the post was unnecessary )

I thought that I was an equal to my peers, my friends and my colleagues. I thought I was a "man's woman" because I had lots of male friends and would gravitate towards the groups of men at parties etc, and they happily let me join in their conversations.

And then I got older, (crucially) had children, and began to see what happens as one becomes an older, less attractive female. When my brilliant, talented female friends drop out of the rat race. When untalented men get promoted into senior positions. When women sacrifice their hobbies because of the demands of work and family, but their partners still manage to find time for a serious mountaineering hobby (or whatever).

Age has definitely radicalised my feminism.