Was Greer Right When She Said Men Hate Women?

Hairyball- it's not odd bitchy comment- some of my female supervisors have treated me terribly- I have more experience of this than male supervisors treating me unfairly at work.

Lettuce- as I explained it wouldn't work as a hate crime because it's too difficult to pin point motive-
If man said something like "show me your tits"- it doesn't clearly pinpoint the motivation down to sexism, as I said it could be sexually motivated.

Wish I hadn't googled rape sentence reduction

upabit was it this one?
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/nurse-who-filmed-himself-raping-1141202.amp

It was in Devon

Sallyarmy- agreed I've experienced a lot of hostility by other women, including female supervisors at work.
upabit late- so what would you change about the law?
I suspect I this scenario many women brush off the comment and don't report. If it was reported would you expect to hear about any subsequent conviction- it isn't front page news material.

When a woman says "(some) women hate other women" generally what she has in mind in my experience is the odd "bitchy remark" or occasionally something more serious like sustained bullying in the workplace.

When a woman says "(some) men hate women" what she has in mind is generally 2 murders a week, 85000 rapes a year and countless physical assaults (as well as the catcalling, the workplace bullying, the nasty remarks).

Not really comparable.

It is hard work unpacking the conditioning of a lifetime. I cannot in good conscience fault women for cutting the best deal they think they can under the circumstances. I am sad for it because the effort really is worthwhile; although it is true that what is once seen it cannot be unseen.

"Like violence, hate speech can also be a physical imposition on the freedom of others. That is because language has a psychological effect imposed physically — on the neural system, with long-term crippling effects."

Missy, this is short excerp from a study. Now we know that women are not covered by hate speech but many of us believe that we should be. Words can and do harm.

I think that some poeple are way too wedded to the law as it has evolved from something put in place to serve men, to see that it fails women and does not reflect our experiences where we have been left feeling violated, frightened, demeaned, upset, angry, all of it.

Men have been shouting show us your tits at schoolgirls since forever, I've never heard of one being punished for it by the law. If anyone has, that would be good to hear so please do share.

Fact is, men do keep women in check with these remarks, with this type of harassment.

I don't know a single woman in the world who has not had a creepy man saying something to them on public transport, or on the street, to make them feel uncomfortable, or scared, or violated.

Even a supposedly non-threatening "nice tits" - I always think "fuck, is he just going to stop at this supposed compliment? Is he going to try and engage further, what's he going to do now"

This makes women afraid - wary of being out in public alone. It can damage their freedom and independence. Every man that does this is intimidating women - he is saying "you're here, and it is my right to comment on parts of body, on your attractiveness."

I have never had a man say anything like this when I am with another man. I think it's about being out without a 'male keeper'.

Absolutely true.

Women certainly do hate other women.

The 'sisterhood' is the biggest oxymoron of them all.

I much prefer male company, always have done.

Re hate crimes against women
Ok your scenario
"Show us your tits love"
Defining this as a hate crime you would have to prove that it was motivated by hate against woman-
How would you narrow the motivation down to hate and not say a sexual motive-
That's why it wouldn't work classifying it as a hate crime

Yes it is,
If she was caused harassment, alarm or distress- it's a public order offence and should be dealt with as such.

Women are not covered by hate speech.

This is a massive and glaring and deliverate omissin.

If you look at protected characteristics for goods and services, employment, sex is in there.

The characteristics for hate speech are the same groups bar women (sex).

This is because if it were made hate speech, the police would never have time to do anything else and everyone knows it. Also because it's so common that most peeople can't see anything wrong with it the way they do eg racist or homophobic abuse.

"up a bit late- the threats are covered by law but don't meet the legal definition of violence."

What threats?

Is it legal or not for a man to shout "show us your tits" at a schoolgirl?

I have no idea TBH. I think it should be. What do you think?

Oh a man wanking at a woman in a situation where there's not many people around. Was what I was thinking of with non contact.

Most women find that extremely threatening but as it's not resulted in physical injury it's seen as minor.

Many crimes against women do not result in lasting physical damage of the type that are deemed important in laws written by men for men.

There was a case recently in the USA (can;t find lik right now) where a defence lawyer said of an admitted child rapist of a very young child that they had "not caused any lasting physical harm" which I think is a good example of this type of approach.

up a bit late- the threats are covered by law but don't meet the legal definition of violence.
Lettuce- hate speech, is hate speech it's an offence but it's not violence.

Missymoo100

And yet hate speech is considered violent......funny that isn't it?

Missy I'd be really grateful for your perspective on the comments I've had from men that I posted a little upthread.

It often occurs to me that our laws and approach to everything is framed - obviously - in terms of how men experience the world.

Non contact sexual offences are not deemed to be "violent" - and even many contact sexual offences. It's about the sort of violence that men do to other men. The sort of violence that men do to women is not considered violence. So, a man following a woman and threatening to rape her - if women had control of the law that would be seen as violent, I think, or at least given more weight than at the moment. Rape is often deemed "non violent" even of children unless there is additional violence of the type men understand - punching and so forth. A man hitting a man on pretty much any part of his body is seen as violence. A man hitting a woman on her breasts or bum is seen as much lesser, even if the result is a lot of bruising. I had a man come up to me and push his fingers into the higes of my jaw to force my mouth open (like giving a cat a tablet) and then he shoved his tongue in my mouth. I was so shocked I didn't really react and the force of his fingers really fucking hurt. Violence? I don't think many people would call that violence.

Our entire understanding of the world and crimes and everything is from a male perspective. No wonder we find it so hard to get justice.

Lettuce;
My point is stop conflating speech with violence - it isn't

Up a bit late-
Violence is violence, speech and nasty comments are not. I wish people would stick to meaningful definitions instead of "speech is violence" bollocks.
Next stop;
"War is peace" "freedom is slavery"

Missymoo100

So what is your point? Do you accept that women and other men are often victims of men? Do you accept that we live in a system of inequality? One that benefits men?

Words can be violent. What you are ignoring is that those scathing remarks are often hurled at women, especially those with a voice and it us an attempt to silence them.....that is extremly violent.

Lettuce-
Have I said you should suck it up- no I haven't! It's not violence though. There may be other offences depending on context. Someone being insulting is not violence, abusive yes, violence no.

What you are talking/arguing about is terrorism, I think. The sort that is not addressed in law.

Missy I'd appreciate your view on some of the examples I gave upthread.