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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Oxfam alleged prostitution cover-up

85 replies

HairyBallTheorem · 09/02/2018 15:42

BBC article here

I read the Times article in the print version at lunch - front page lead article, plus two inside pages devoted to it, so if anyone could link with a share token this would be great.

It's about a group of men, senior in Oxfam's Haiti relief programme, having parties with prostitutes (some of whom may well have been under the age of consent). Someone blew the whistle, and the men were removed from Oxfam, but mostly through being paid off rather than sacked. The Times alleges Oxfam then systematically covered up the abuse so as not to cause ructions among the general public whose donations they rely on.

I know there have been other threads in the past, including posts from women who've worked for NGOs saying it's absolutely endemic. (About the only two names which pop up as not being involved and having decent policies against aid workers sexually abusing the vulnerable women and children they're meant to be helping are Christian Aid and MSF).

Does anyone have any thoughts on any sort of campaigning that could be done to get charities to clean up their act.

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AngryAttackKittens · 17/02/2018 01:30

I could give you dozens of examples of changes for the worse among women over the last few years, but this is supposed to be a reply to your rather trite and clearly ideologically based dismissal, and not a whole damned essay – I gave up writing those years ago.

Uppity young women not behaving in the way that you'd prefer them to!

If you had actual examples that you know would stand up to debate you'd have given them.

LassWiADelicateAir · 17/02/2018 00:58

Interestingly, the thread hasn’t disappeared forever – a friend of mine who works as a divorce lawyer – she also uses Mumsnet - copied the lot for training purposes. She works with younger lawyers and is now apparently using it to teach them about the sort of things that women do to their husbands. A study in manipulative and toxic behaviour if you like

Being an actual, proper lawyer I call this out as utter nonsense.

sillage · 15/02/2018 16:41

It's clear you are confused about the definitions of the words "commodification" and "essay".

HairyBallTheorem · 15/02/2018 08:10

Well said Tallulah

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TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 15/02/2018 08:03

Trafficking, rape and false imprisonment of traumatised and destitute women and children on a massive scale ... being lairy on a hen night.

No, I'm not seeing the moral equivalence tbh.

Can we stop with the whataboutery? It's no better than rape apologism.

SophoclesTheFox · 15/02/2018 07:02

Interestingly, the thread hasn’t disappeared forever – a friend of mine who works as a divorce lawyer – she also uses Mumsnet - copied the lot for training purposes. She works with younger lawyers and is now apparently using it to teach them about the sort of things that women do to their husbands. A study in manipulative and toxic behaviour if you like

That is a seriously bizarre thing to do Confused Why would a divorce lawyer need training in that? Their job is to help people legally separate, not go chasing round trying to understand people's psychological motivations.

That thread was a car crash, but I don't for one second honestly believe that it was filled with things that people actually did. I'm sure some elements were true, but as it went on, people were clearly one-upping each other and making stuff up.

Even if some of the wilder stuff was legit- you can't honestly be comparing a thread about petty vindictive acts on Mumsnet to running a brothel for raping children using a charity's money and facilities, can you? Seriously?

KazzerBites · 15/02/2018 06:55

Hi sillage, and herein lies part of the problem.

I start from the point whereby I believe that all human beings whether male or female are affected by socialisation. If I didn’t think this then frankly, I wouldn’t see much point in carrying on. If we don’t believe this then we just have to accept that nothing will ever change because our sons will inherit a ‘Curse of Adam’ and our daughters will carry on behaving as they always have. I don’t want to think that that is the case, and I suspect that you don’t either, otherwise you wouldn’t be here.

If we accept that boys are affected by socialisation – internet porn, toxic male culture, consumerism – then we also have to accept that girls are too. After all feminism has changed the behaviour of women and girls, that is an effect of socialisation.

We live in a pretty damned toxic world right now whereby consumerism teaches people to treat everything as a commodity – and that, sadly, includes other people.

I am old enough to have seen a massive change in the way that women behave. Some of those changes have been for the better without doubt. Some of those changes - resulting from socialisation - have encouraged women to seize more opportunities and do a great many things they would never have done before.

Unfortunately I have also seen some changes in the way that women and girls behave that are not so positive. Recently here on Mumsnet there was a thread on AIBU about ‘minor acts of vindictiveness that you do to your partner’ or somesuch title. It was commented on here on the Women’s Right board with horror. The examples given on that thread included gasslighting, surreptitious drugging and God knows what else. Mumsnet HQ deleted that thread – a pity really, I always prefer it when evidence is left out in the open for all to see. Women here on this board were – rightly - horrified. Many women on AIBU however thought it was ‘brilliant’ and should go in Mumsnet Classics. This suggests a distinct difference between the women here on this board, and many of those who comment on AIBU.

Interestingly, the thread hasn’t disappeared forever – a friend of mine who works as a divorce lawyer – she also uses Mumsnet - copied the lot for training purposes. She works with younger lawyers and is now apparently using it to teach them about the sort of things that women do to their husbands. A study in manipulative and toxic behaviour if you like.

I have seen some of the frankly disgusting things that younger women get up to on hen nights and some of it makes my blood run cold. Displaying the same kinds of commodification of human beings that was – in our society at any rate – previously exhibited only by men.

I have also had the dubious pleasure of meeting some thoroughly evil - that is the only way I can describe them – women over the years.

No, I do not think that women behave in this way to anywhere near the same extent as men, but things are certainly changing, but, just as male sex offenders manipulate others, and deliberately place themselves in positions where they can satisfy their urges, so do their female counterparts.

I could give you dozens of examples of changes for the worse among women over the last few years, but this is supposed to be a reply to your rather trite and clearly ideologically based dismissal, and not a whole damned essay – I gave up writing those years ago.

To sum up, socialisation on children changes the way that they go on to behave as adults, and many women younger than me have been socialised in a pretty lousy way and taught to treat others as commodities. Not to the same extent I agree, but it’s getting worse, and denying it simply gives help to those who want to pull us down and take away our gains.

sillage · 15/02/2018 02:22

KazzerBites, your main example seems to consist of a man's accusation (and sexist drivel about how women cause men to objectify women through having sex) about a few unpaid female volunteers having unpaid sex with refugee boys/men in Denmark and France.

You are comparing that to the quantities of paid male staff for Oxfam necessary to establish entire pay-per-rape brothels full of critically impoverished women and children in post-earthquake Haitian disaster sites.

These things are only similar to men who comb the internet for proof that all 3.5 billion of the world's females are not 100% free from morally questionable behavior.

KazzerBites · 15/02/2018 01:07

Sorry, but it is women too. Unfortunately the aid industry attracts exploitative people full stop. Sure there are more men than women, but women aren't immune:

www.express.co.uk/news/world/727739/Migrants-sex-asylum-seeker-care-worker-Denmark-child-refugee-crisis

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/calais-jungle-volunteers-sex-refugees-allegations-facebook-care4calais-a7312066.html

www.rt.com/news/360542-female-volunteers-sex-migrants-calais/

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3802351/Calais-aid-workers-regularly-having-SEX-migrants-Jungle-camp-FEMALE-charity-helpers-likely-sleep-refugee.html

The first of these examples is from an asylum centre in Denmark where female aid workers were having sex with children, the other three are from the Calais camp. When these goings on first came out some people tried firstly to deny it was happening, then to justify it saying it was somehow not exploitative because women were doing it, and finally, to say that it was all made up by the Tories as an excuse to cut aid. Sadly it's none of the above, and if you think it's not happening further afield then you are sadly deluded.

This stuff has indeed been going on for ages. Unfortunately the modern work seems to have started to breed a rather nasty kind of toxic femininity as well as the toxic masculinity with which we are all too familiar.

AngryAttackKittens · 15/02/2018 00:43

Did anyone hear 'thought for the day' this morning? Apparently having a go a big charities only hurts the vulnerable people they're helping and 'let he is who without sin cast the first stone'. shock
I stopped brushing my teeth and stared at the radio in horror. WTF?

I'm happy to admit that I'm not perfect but in this case, yes, I can indeed affirm that as far as using my job as a means of extorting sex from vulnerable people in developing countries is concerned my record and my conscience are both clean.

LassWiADelicateAir · 15/02/2018 00:22

This is not just an issue with men. I know of several female charity workers doing the same - it is more to do with an abuse of power of those who have access to funds and those who don’t

I don't believe that.

Badgerthebodger · 14/02/2018 23:31

I’m absolutely disgusted and still reeling to be honest. The sheer fucking span of these disgusting atrocities committed BY MEN under the umbrella of being right on kind and helpful lefty bros. I’m horrified. Those poor women and children, no fucking avenue left to turn down, no options left. And fucking Oxfam can fuck right off. None of these big corporate “charities” will see a penny from me. I’m just RAGING.

user764329056 · 14/02/2018 22:50

Phlap, you are spot on, we may know each other, sounds like you are from the sector too, I just hope this leads to honest investigation of everything to do with corporate charities, I had to leave after a lengthy career as I was so disillusioned with all I saw and it was such a huge beast I couldn’t try to take it on

Lottapianos · 14/02/2018 07:15

'Apparently having a go a big charities only hurts the vulnerable people they're helping and 'let he is who without sin cast the first stone'. shock'

Well I've heard some sanctimonious shite in my time but that really is quite something Angry

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 13/02/2018 12:23

What the actual fuck BeUp - I'd have been close to crashing the car if I'd heard that.

Would people say the same about abuses carried out by the church? After all, they do a lot to help people as well so what's the matter with a little bit of a child abuse? Ugh actually I'm sure that point of view isn't too hard to find either - how depressing.

BeUpStanding · 13/02/2018 10:16

This all makes me want to weep with rage and fury.

Did anyone hear 'thought for the day' this morning? Apparently having a go a big charities only hurts the vulnerable people they're helping and 'let he is who without sin cast the first stone'. Shock
I stopped brushing my teeth and stared at the radio in horror. WTF?

niceberg · 12/02/2018 16:53

Outcome of today's talks between Oxfam and government is that the deputy CEO has resigned. The CEO stays in place, but it seems he wasn't in post at the time of the events in Haiti.

MistressDeeCee · 10/02/2018 15:16

This is not just an issue with men

Yes it is.

Those who spent younger years in countries where aid workers would be from time to time know very well THE MEN WERE THE ABUSERS. MALE AID WORKERS. MALE PRIESTS.

Is that clear enough? It was men that had to be avoided. Men that your mother would warn you about "dont forget, take the other way home".

I think about the poorer women in ghetto areas, and those men who played on their poverty knowing a desperate woman would give herself, or her daughter.

I do not believe all the women aid workers are unaware. No way. But that's a separate conversation to be had regarding what it takes to close eyes to wrongdoing. To not rock the boat.

Backenette · 10/02/2018 12:18

The left’s response to this, plus their championing of TRAs is actually making me reconsider my core politics.

I consider myself left wing in that I’m a strong believer in fairness for all, equality of opportunity, a good safety net etc. I thought that was the core of being slightly left. Trade unions, a strong welfare state, feminism, generally being decent and not shogun any one group under the bus in the face of either corporate greed or hatred.
But right now I’m afraid every time I read the Guardian or similar I’m feeling quite ill. Religious men are not to be offended so women, you’re going to lose some of your rights. These men think they are women so women, we will have some more of those rights.

It’s making me question what I really believe in and stand for, because right now he left are not only not speaking for me, they are actively campaigning for something that will harm half the population.

QuentinSummers · 10/02/2018 11:53

Yuck. I'm with roomba

Xenophile · 10/02/2018 11:28

Sadly HairyBallTheorem I have come to the conclusion that large numbers of brocialists who defend all manner of abuses against women and girls are either as you say, consumers of whatever abuse it is we're discussing or simply misogynists, red in tooth and claw. The longer I talk to these men, the more entrenched that belief has become, to the extent that I am now pleasantly surprised when I come across a man who isn't one of those.

At least with your old fashioned, dyed in the wool, right leaning misogynist you expect it. It's always somehow worse coming from right-on men and women.

HairyBallTheorem · 10/02/2018 11:23

xenophile what's the betting the brocialists defending the idea that underage female children in a disaster zone being forced into prostitution (aka child rape) because they're desperate for food and shelter is "empowering" are themselves users of prostitutes?

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123MothergotafleA · 10/02/2018 11:16

I have to admit that I had no idea of the scale of abuse by so called "aid" workers. Yes, I knew about the UN scandal, but assumed it was a rare occurrence. My feeling now is to pull the plug on donating to any major charity organisation, and to concentrate on local ones like " Help the Aged" or The Salvation Army" who are doing good work for our own vulnerable people here in my town
I will continue to maintain my standing order for Macmillan however.
And I will not set foot in the Oxfam shop, or donate anything to them until their organisation can prove that they've cleaned up their act.
I am almost in shock here, and feel foolish for trusting that someone like Oxfam had a shred of dignity/ decency.

Xenophile · 10/02/2018 11:02

I have actually seen men today suggest that it was "empowering" for the women and children involved. And muttering about the oldest profession. Which is weird really, because I wasn't aware that sexist, abusive shit blokes needed midwives...