Quick query about gender dysphoria

Responding to Bouledeneige....

• why do we refer to gender assigned at birth? (eg. Stonewall's glossary).

I think it's because being trans is almost certainly like being heterosexual; it's what you are you didn't make a choice to be that way and thus it can be argued that you were assigned something that you weren't at birth.

Isn't the sex of a child not just based on genitalia but also on our DNA.....

Your sex isn't determined by your chromosomes at birth though is it? It's determined by someone making a judgement, which in 99.7% of cases is right, based on what they see at birth. No one has their chromosomes tested to check. I would agree that probably most transgender people also have the chromosomes that would confirm the assignment at birth, but some won't. I know a very interesting case of a transwomen who appeared very masculine before transitioning, but on taking hormones developed a lump in her abdomen that turned out to be vestigial fallopian tube; she had no idea that she didn't have the conventional set of male chromosomes before that.

• Why is CIS gender used as a term of abuse directed towards women?.....

I think CIS is problematic, but it's very hard to get your head around what terms to use if you want to start distinguishing those 'at birth' assignments. I'm not in favour of it, but I think from my limited knowledge, trans people (though perhaps not some trans activists) never intended it to be a derogatory term, just a way of distinguishing.

• the research posted earlier is interesting defining 3 distinct groups of trans people......

I'm not sure it's as clear cut as 3 distinct groups and I think people's dysphoria changes over time. Transhobbit talked about a dissonance, which I think is right, but that dissonance can also grow over time and you can reach a point where you have to take action; I know of very few trans people who have not been close to suicide at some point in their life. The simple presence of the internet and the ability to find out you are not alone and discuss the feelings and issues is I'm sure making a huge difference to how people deal with it. It is probably mostly positive, but there is also a danger that vulnerable people may be led on.

Can anyone explain these things to me further?....

So I hope that helps. And yes, I am speaking from experience and I am transgender and have had gender reassignment surgery (male to female). However, I am very much not a transgender activist (and I would put most trans people in the same camp as me there, just like gay folk).

My gender dysphoria increased over my life and reached a peak after my second child was born. It was almost like my mind said that once I'd had children (which I desperately wanted), there was no need to continue in the male body that I found so hard to live with. My then wife had known since before we were married, neither of us expected me to end up transitioning and it was the hardest decision of my life and one I agonised over in increasing bouts of depression for several years. She also agreed that it was the only sensible course of action, and stood by me but eventually moved on; she is another relationship and we get on very well; I don't begrudge her that.

I live a full busy life, looking after my children, playing in bands and running my own business. It took me about 3 years to really relax, which is probably also because it takes that long for hormones etc to deliver the final result in regard to appearance and I now exist in a world where only those who knew me before (or by association) know that I am trans. I have attempted to date men and women; I can easily go for several dates without my prospective partner knowing that I am trans. I'm not at all sexually driven, but I do crave the affection and companionship of a partner. Only one man has ever come close to accepting me (we had a short relationship until he came to play in a band with me and couldn't handle the fact that some of the others knew my past). All the women I have just ended up being friends with, which I enjoy. My circle of friends is mostly similarly aged women most, but not all, know my past and are very happy to socialise with me.

Being genuinely trans is hard; I would not wish it on anyone. It's not only hard to live with, it's also impossible to explain, but I hope I've helped.

Bouledeneige Sat 10-Feb-18 12:46:41

"Very new to all these debates but pretty worried for women's rights. A couple of thoughts/questions:

• why do we refer to gender assigned at birth?"

It is an appropriation of the term intersex people use to describe themselves.

Exactly Candles, I totally agree with this, I and the term CIS utterly offensive. It is used in the trans community as a derogatory term for people who are women with a biologically anatomically correct body.

I object hugely to the term 'cis-woman'.

You don't want me to misgender you? Then don't fucking misgender me.

Jelly on the same side. I dislike CIS intensely and was (ineffectually0 trying to make the point.

I agree with what you are saying. I objected to your use of cis.

When someone struggles to integrate into one side of a binary system, forcing them onto the other side (especially when the truth is that they will never be able to fully integrate into the new side) seems utterly ridiculous.

Far better to accept that, just as with sexuality, there is a spectrum of gendered behaviour.

I'm sorry if what I wrote wasn't clear. I thought it was clear. Did you read it?

I'm saying our DNA, identity and experience is distinct and different, our characteristics cannot be acquired. And we should not be abused for it.

Jellyslice. Yes. Thats what I'm saying.

why our DNA should be held against us as women.

Held against us? It defines us.

Bouledeneige

Ah, ok. I missed that.

'Woman' says nothing about gender identity. Woman = adult female human. It needs no qualifiers. Take 100 different women from 100 different cultures and societies, and the only thing you will find common to all 100 is their sex.

Male-bodied people come along and say "I am a woman" (ie 'transwomen are women') "therefore YOU need something to define you as different to me". No. TIMs need the linguistic modifier, not women.

'Cis' diminishes women to a subset of people who are not, by any rational definition, women.

Thanks. I'm getting the drift. I know transactivistis use it but was disappointed about Stonewall not acknowledging how its used. There is no need for it to exist at all. If you read my whole post you'll see where my sentiments lie - I am asking the question why our DNA should be held against us as women.

Bouledeneige

Cis is a term being pushed by transactivists (including Stonewall).

It's loaded, and nowhere near as neutral as they imply. There is a definite agenda with it.

This thread explains everything.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3163424-the-case-against-cis

JellySlice - sorry if I wasn't clear - I was asking why people use it as an abusive misogynistic term. The Stonewall site explains it as if it is an objective term without pejorative connotations which I've always seen it to have:

Cisgender or Cis – someone whose gender identity is the same as the sex they were assigned at birth. Non-trans is also used by some people.

What jellyslice said.

The people I worked with had long histories of trauma and/or abuse. But I am very aware that this is only one explanation and that the kinds of dysphoria that the people I worked with had were extreme.

My DS also has ASD, and I've noticed that a sizeable number of kids in his "ASD ghetto" (their phrase, not mine) experience enormous difficulty squaring how they experience their bodies and sexualities with how society dictates they should experience them.

@Bouledeneige

Please do not use 'cis'. It is unnecessary and demeaning. 'Woman' and 'man' are complete and clear descriptors.

That's really interesting Xenophile.

Did you form an opinion about what causes it?

I realise it's probably not one thing. But I wondered if it had given you any insight?

I've worked with people with dysphoria/dysmorphia and it is a real thing. Their minds are telling them that a part of their body doesn't belong to them/is diseased/possessed/something similar and they need it gone. There is work you can do to help people with these conditions to better integrate reality, but for some the only solution is surgery.

The really sad thing is that, even if they have surgery, a solid proportion of them then kill themselves around 10 years post-surgery.

Your mental map of your body, no matter how sorted you are, is rarely indicative of reality anyway, and in cases where that mental map is so distorted that surgery was deemed to be the best answer, the chances of the surgery being a good simulacrum of that person's mental map of themselves is pretty low.

I'm not suggesting that this happens to everyone with dysphoria/dysmorphia of course, but for significantly high percentages it is the case. We have to be able to do better, and doing better often means that we have to be able to work to help people to feel more comfortable in the skin they're in, we're not allowed to do that though.

TransHobbit

Thanks for replying. It's not often we get a transman on here and the chance to ask questions. But I realise it might feel incredibly intrusive.

Could I ask another question?

Do you have that sense of disconnect for any other aspect that society considers feminine, rather than just an anatomical issue?

Very new to all these debates but pretty worried for women's rights. A couple of thoughts/questions:

• why do we refer to gender assigned at birth? (eg. Stonewall's glossary). Isn't the sex of a child not just based on genitalia but also on our DNA - ie if you ignored the presence/development of breast, womb, penis, scrotum, eggs and sperm, facial hair, adams apple and simply took a DNA sample you would genetically determine the gender - XX is female XY male. These are not social norms, they are scientifically proven facts irrespective of whether you remove/re-model physical features or take hormone supplements? No one is actually saying you can influence the at fertilisation determination of your XY chromosomes are they? And no one is being a fascist by saying you can't.
• Why is CIS gender used as a term of abuse directed towards women? It seems to simply be a new form of bigotry and misogyny directed towards women based upon biological fact - our DNA, our identity and experience.
• the research posted earlier is interesting defining 3 distinct groups of trans people - those male or female who have experienced dysmorphia since birth who may or may not have homosexual, bi-sexual or heterosexual impulses; those (Male) people who experience at adolescence a sexual desire to see themselves in festichised female clothing - who may or may not feel the need to pursue gender re-assignment;/be hetero/bi or homosexual and those (female) teenagers who identify at adolescence with being trans as part of seeking a new identity, sometimes as a cure for mental health or other typical teenager feelings of alienation.

In a way, that is no different to any other permanent body-modification - whether it be tattoos, tooth-filing, nipple-piercing or cosmetic surgery. All things that only adults can consent to, and that we would be appalled if parents 'did' them to their children.

If I had to try and quantify what I felt about myself, then dissonance is a better word. There’s a subtle wrongness, a nagging disconnect between self and actuality. It doesn’t cause me any great distress. I just know I’d be happier with a phenotypically male body.

That's quite interesting Hobbit and I do think a number of women perhaps feel similar in some ways.

I don't particularly like having breasts, I find them rather cumbersome and uncomfortable and permanently wear a sturdy bra except for bathing.

On some level wouldn't mind having a masculine chest. It's not really a dysphoria more of a this is the reality of having largish breasts thing but I recognise they are part of who I am and have nourished several children so I'm not about to have surgery unless it was for medical reasons.

If your dysphoria is that bad then you need therapy and mood stabilising medication before you can even begin to think about transitioning.

Well put.